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UrantiaL062293Thru072293TM_Discussions-Part6

THE URANTIAL ARCHIVE

Consisting of 10 Parts

From December 14,1992 Through February25, 1994

22 Jun 1993    Thea Hardy       Testing, testing!

Subject: Testing, testing! In-Reply-To: [9306221631.AA08568@kira.CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Hi folks,

 David K., will discuss the circuits with you soon. Michael forwarded that one to me. I didn't say I believed that the circuit activated at that time is what the TM is using necessarily, but could be. While it was obviously used by our superiors, it was also a result of the full use of human minds, i.e. Andon and Fanta, and I do not read anything there that either proves or disproves that it is not possible for us to utilize that circuit. I will have to pay more attention in terms of whether or not I think it would have been cut off by the rebellion, but since I believe that the rebellion has been adjudicated (yes, I do. I can't prove it, but I believe it nonetheless, like a lot of other things I believe without proof; such a life on such a planet, eh?!) that circuit would again be available. I think we will have a hard time proving whether or not the rebellion has been adjudicated, that is for sure. The UB itself is rather ambiguous about the possible timing of that. I used to think that the era of light and life in ANY sense was thousands and thousands of years away. I even chided good friends who thought we might see it in our lifetimes - not the full flower, but maybe the beginnings. I am straying far afield here. I will try to get the net problem straightened out and answer some of the past questions as I am able to get them reposted to me, etc.

 I am thinking of you all and amazingly frustrated at being semi-cut off from you! You are all important to me and although I knew that, this experience certainly makes it even clearer. Love to you all, and hoping to get this ironed out.

 

22 Jun 1993    Byron Belitsos      Dennis & TM

Subject: Dennis & TM

 Dear Dennis,

 My mistake. I had recalled sending that message about IC93 & TM as public email and had intended to.

 Your arguments for TM publicity and use of Fellowship forums for formal TM activities have some strictly logical merit. However, I am not moved to take advice from the highlands of neutral Switzerland when I am working in the trenches of conflict in the lowlands of France. Dennis, come join in the pouring out of exquisite spiritual riches that is the Teaching Mission, Dennis. Experience first hand. Do you have the strength?

 It is easy to invoke the "fair use" doctrine with respect to publishing TM transcripts. In this case, an impersonal law created by men tells you what you can and cannot do. However, it takes strength to reign in your impulses -- and observe a higher law of graciousness and sensitivity in publicity activities, one that respects free will and readiness of individuals, our brothers and sisters whose free will is recognized by our celestial teachers as sovereign. Regular stillness practice may give you this power of discernment. This could be seen as unsolicited advice, but it is my hope that this recommendation hits the mark nonetheless.

 When you have an actual position on the TM I will be more inclined to debate your propositions about management of the TM with more energy. Right now, Switzerland is too cool and removed for me. Too many Hershey bars for me.

22 Jun 1993    Fred Harris         TM Exercise

Subject: TM Exercise

 Hello again. David, I have no idea why my postings are running off the page. I did find out that a 13 year old kid wrote the freenet software, so it may have its glitches. If it gets too bad, I will switch over to a more conventional method of accessing the net. Michael, if you have any suggestions on this problem, let me know. As promised, I would like to post an exercise on listening. This will lead into listening to the Father (stillness practice) but it will primarily be about listening to people you meet in the unfolding of your life. Listening is an art. Most of the time we spend time looking like we are listening, but I have a tendency to be thinking of what I will say next instead of what the person is trying to convey to me. I guess before we can know the best way to meet people where they are, we have to determine where they are. Seems simple enough. It's not. "In the fundamentals of life, Jesus in no way differed from you in your relationship with the Heavenly Father. We often wonder how is it that he could live an absolutely blameless life? How is it that his life could perfectly conform to the will of the Heavenly Father? And the answer to these questions is deceptively simple. He could do so because he never concerned himself with superficial matters. When any choice presented itself among multiple options, he concerned himself with only the fundamental issue which was determining which path most closely conformed with the will of the Father in Heaven. We feel that this technique is of valuable import to you all and the basic rule which we divine from the circumstances of Jesus is this: by concerning himself only with the fundamentals, he never made a mistake. By having as his source of true concern only the discovery of the Father's will, he assured that he would never stray from the path. This technique is open to you. We encourage you to embrace it. Incorporate it in your daily lives, in your dealings with your friends, your enemies, with strangers and family. Try to look through the smoke and the veneer and sense the fundamental issues at hand. This will require great listening skill on your part for you must listen to your neighbor before you can understand their meaning. Ah, but then, you ask, how can I listen more closely? We think we know the answer to your question. Our advice is, don't think about what you are going to say in response. Pay your companion a compliment of actually listening to what they have to say before you begin composing your response. Hear them out and you will find that you will be a much better listener and you will hear with more than merely your ears. You will hear all of the spaces and the changes in tone. You will hear all of the things that you are unable to discern when you spend your valuable time thinking what you will say in response before the person has yet finished. Armed then with that valuable information and having quieted you own mind, you are much better prepared to dive deep and determine the fundamental issues presented. You will have then passed through the veneer, through the smoke and the dust and arrived at that situation which Jesus so naturally dealt with. If you practice this technique, you will be successful among your fellow men and they will notice that there is something different about you. They will be drawn to you and you will once again have an opportunity to demonstrate with every thought and deed, the degree to which you understand the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as if he were standing by your side. You must know by now that that is surely so and you will once again have an opportunity to allow the love with its source and the Father in Heaven to flow through you to your conversations and you will have an opportunity to do so without jokes and wisecracks and to making light of the opportunity of which you are engaged. When you do this, you will be doing the Father's will. I beg you, do not aim low. Raise your sights beyond the work of Jesus to the work of the Father. Let your life be a reflection of the understanding of the Father. He is freely available to you. He is always on duty...We recommend that you take the time to [contact Him], first on a regular basis and, second, whenever you feel the need for a true friend, for pure, honest guidance and for the inspiration of your eternal souls."

 

23 Jun 1993    Dennis Shields      A NARROW MIND HAS A BROAD TONG

Subject: A NARROW MIND HAS A BROAD TONGUE

 Aloha sojourners in the land of logon, Wow what a plethora of interesting post.

 Stefan, thanks for the take on Hubbell and his inconstant constant. It is my desire by questioning the cosmology and the *errors* on its face to sort out the differences between earned knowledge and revelation. Because the book itself states that a revision is necessary it seems to me a fruitful search to ferret out the gray areas in our revealed understanding of the cosmos versus the earned knowledge of it. That Hubbell's constant has been devalued over time has not made it go away. That a potential cluster of galaxies lies hidden by the plane of Orvonton really is interesting , but in and of itself does not resolve the differentiation between revealed universe concept frames and earned knowledge concept frames. I am thankful for any and all contributions in pursuit of discovery of the truth in this matter. Please understand that because I may question cosmology I am not predisposed to any conclusion regarding this question. Who knows what tomorrow may bring?

 Thea my prayers to you and toward a happy conclusion to your difficulties, I sent you a post about music and considering your address change I wonder if you received it, I know your busy but if you did not receive it please let me know. I will post a repeat to you when pau dis one.

 Byron, scheesh guy you coming or going? Who appointed you keeper of the TM. You are not even consistent with the Messages you seek to promote. Over and over again the Teachers request the dissemination of their teachings yet you want to bottle it up. If the teachers wish the transcripts dispursed then it truely is fair use to post them. I regard my personal relationship with God as my business yet you seem to think you are qualified to determine whether I have an actual position in the TM. It appears to me that you are taking up the position of being the TMs first ecclesiastic authority. I was requested by several T/Rs to post the messages I have. If the T/R who received such messages request that I render the service of posting such message who are you to dare question this being done. I believe that you have shot yourself in your own foot in the past regarding conveying these messages and now you assume that the cautions which *you* should rightly observe apply to all others. Switzerland may be too cool for you, too cool indeed, engaged as you are in the heat of imaginary battles, but perhaps the cool embrace of reason would prevent you from slaying friend and foe alike. Glad to hear you are taking a week off the list maybe reason will reassert itself and instead of failing at trying to be a leader you can learn to follow those very teaching mission teachings you might be endorsing or perhaps there is a place for you in the sun, Sedona AZ.

 David Kantor so you lived in Hookena far out, we (our band the *South Kona Blues Band*) just played a wedding down near the village but north on the coast road a half mile or so I bet if you returned you would find very little has changed down at the village still one of the last refuges of the ol kine Hawai i, Hawai i nei.

 After reading your response to the WWIII scenario I posted and after doing some investigation I have come up with a more complete picture that I would like you to consider. Please look at the following time line of events:

 1983 Sept. 1 Ruskies shoot down KAL 007

 Oct. 16 Vern issues a letter to *leaders* urging the wisdom of becoming familiar with emergency preparedness systems in our local vicinities civil defense and disaster preparedness (no dire warning here or prediction of a definite date)

 Oct. 23 US Marines blown up in their barracks in Beirut

 Nov. 2 Beginning of NATO exercise Able Archer, Kremlin over heats

 Nov. 8 Kremlin issued proposed count down to WWIII as potentially ten days

 end of Nov. Able Archer ends Kremlin still in an alarmist state.

 1984 Feb Andropov dies Gorby soon comes to power

 1985 Fog issues a prediction of March 25 (? Fill in details please) as the date for WWIII This as I understand it are messages received and promoted by you David and also Sara yet not endorsed by Vern. (I am open to your recollections of these events please feel free to contradict if your impressions of these events differ)

 1985 a retraction of sorts is issued by FOG members unsigned by Vern. As I understand this Vern has stuck by his impressions of the events he experienced in 1983 as valid personal experiences

 So now I think I understand how this story has involved the dates 1985 and 1983. The 1985 date is easy to dismiss as at that time the downfall of the Soviet empire was commencing apace. Whereas the 1983 date was a moment of peril and a urging to familiarize ourselves with emergency preparedness certainly was fitting. I can also understand how a year of tension following the preparedness activities FOG underwent could create a atmosphere of near hysteria and provide a fermenting ground from which subconscious promptings would create a date certain after which you folks could regain some normalcy (what ever that is).

 Now a decade later memories wane the TM blossoms and it is so reminiscent of days gone by that it is impossible for the walking wounded from FOG to objectively analyze the TM experience. You folks quite understandably attack with out paying much attention to the message, its potential for validity, the only thing in your focus is the methodology of the message and not the message itself.

 My thanks again for conveying the 1983 message for emergency preparedness training I see this as a valid exercise especially here as we live on an active Volcano and a Hurricane devastated the island Kauai just this last September. I can see the wisdom of following such advice to familiarize oneself with what to do in case of disaster no matter where you reside.

 As to the messages of 1985 how heart breaking. The fruition of those messages resulted in the downfall of FOG which was at the forefront of the Urantia movement, the leadership vacuum which followed this collapse allowed the frat brats to gain control of the Foundation and as a result its very hard to find Urantia Books in any book store.

 An interesting addendum to the previous time line is that the Teaching Mission says that the termination of Lucifer and Caligastia was the year 1985, I think this is interesting as before this date we nearly lost it all to nuclear war, after 1985 the Eastern block falls apart and up 'til Bosnia it seems like peace is busting out all over (desert storm could be viewed as the birthing pains of world government).

 I still think that Vern has been put in the position of being a scapegoat. I just cant buy that he is as black a character as some of your postings, David, have painted him. I asked a individual in your neck of the woods about Vern and I was told of how this individual drove into either Couresgold or Oakhearst I forget which and being unfamiliar with that part of California (having grown up in Orange County we always approached Yosemite from the south) any how this person stopped the first person he saw, a young lad, and asked if this youngster knew Vern or where he could be found. The young man replies about how Vern helps him and how Vern is rendering service to those around him. In your posting David, you suggest that if I am so concerned about Vern, that I contact him. I am actually more concerned about the general lack of forgiveness of Vern from some former friends and long time associates than I am about Vern. It is by our loving kindness that others will know we know the Master. I know that I personally have a long way to go before my loving kindness is up to snuff yet I can not help wishing that the treatment and remembrances of Vern more closely resembled this lofty ideal Well its late and Im gonna post it. Aloha

23 Jun 1993    Fred Harris         TM Exercise-Listening

Subject: TM Exercise-Listening

 Since the teaching mission is about incorporating the basic teachings of Jesus into our daily lives, I would like to continue the exercises with a second part of the listening exercise. "Each of you has reached the point in life where now spiritual concerns are predominant. The skills that you have applied in your lives to this point are but the foundation from which you will construct a new understanding; a new life in the light. Nothing is wasted but neither is any position static. We think that if you but try moving forward in an orderly manner, you will like the result. We think you will find it pleasing even if it is not possible for you to understand with much certainty your role in the scheme. So we request that you apply yourselves to the assignments so recently rendered, that is, to listen. It is a fine skill. Each of you already knows that few people are genuinely interested in hearing your stories anyway but you can provide them a good service by listening to theirs. We are quite certain that by listening you would learn things that you would not otherwise know. "The knowledge of the species is not contained in books. The life essence of your people is also too large to be encompassed by any description. You can kill it and disassemble it to its parts and you can record those parts. You no longer have a viable product. Disciplines are devoted to exactly that process in your society. We think it is better that you simply listen and bypass the steps of categorization and ranking. We think that, by listening, you can learn something about the Heavenly Father's plan and about His participation in your neighbor's life, much the same as His participation in your life. The Father works through all instruments. No tool is too crude to be turned aside for His purposes and, by listening, we think that you will better be prepared for the intersection of God Fragment with God Fragment, for in the spark there is mystery. "Therefore, we simply ask that you listen. It is a good and durable skill. It will serve you throughout your universe career. In fact, it is indispensable and, barring that development, you will each have grave difficulty making further progress anyway. "Until we speak together again, listen to your brothers and sisters."

 

 A few short comments. To Byron, yes, I plan to be at IC93. To Leo, the Mets have been into the stillness for much of the year but I plan to watch them anyway. In fact, my family is flying into Boston for a couple of games at Fenway. Then on to Shea and Yankee stadium. Then on to Philadelphia before pulling into Montreal. We hope to have a ball (sorry). But as Jerry Garcia also said, "What a long, strange trip its been." Ain't it the truth.

24 Jun 1993    David Kantor      Comments to D. Larsen and othe

Subject: Comments to D. Larsen and others

 Hello, Friends....

 This is going to have to be brief (really);

 David Larsen, thanks for cutting me some slack; again, I participate hereon as who I am. Who I am is a product of my experience. My experience with "messages" and "channeling" over a period of years at FOG led to watching loved ones experience major disasters, including destroyed marriages, careers, financial wipeouts and even one suicide which was carefully concealed from the rest of the movement. My experience has been that people who were not personally involved in Clayton with us have no way of really understanding what occurred. I have said this many times, but the responses I get from people only indicate that they are not really hearing what I am trying to say.

 However, let me try once again to clarify a point. People writing hereon seem to accede me my position based on the assumption that I have a psychological block to the TM based on the depth of emotional reaction I had to a similar experience in the past. To the best of my ability to know myself, I must say that this is not the case. I am a fairly strongly God-intoxicated person, and I come from a genetic line of similarly infected mortals. I would do absolutely anything I thought was in accordance with the Father's will and was essential to my spiritual progress. Neither do I have any qualms about making a complete fool out of myself (as evidenced by some of the contributions I have made hereon) in my pursuit of truth and understanding of the Father's will. The experience and value of God consciousness is simply too valuable to me to trade it or negate it for *any* other value.

 My objection to the TM is on *philosophic* grounds and I hope to be able to make this point more clearly in a post I am currently developing. One of the points is that of validating the message one receives. When one is getting "messages" which contain the spiritual quality seen in many of the TM transcripts, it's hard to argue the point. The TM adherents contributing hereon seem to have had no problem at all in recognizing the Sedona "messages" as somehow flawed. (Although I've been surprised to see that I'm apparently the only one who sees similar problems in the material posted by Fred Harris.)

 These are two ends to the spectrum; the spiritual fragrance of some of the material seems to validate it while the obvious extremes of the Sedona material make it easy to discount. But what about more subtle errors? Without a sound philosophical technique for separating out the good from the bad, one is left in a certain state of uncertainty. This does not seem to be a serious issue under present circumstances for TM adherents.

 I find that I rely on my inner connection with God for a great deal; I make contact frequently and over the years have developed a relatively workable relationship which fuels my growth and opens doors for me faster than I can walk through them. Where the going gets tough is when you have come to rely on this spiritual help, and something *really* serious happens to you; you have a death in your family, or your career falls apart, or you find yourself in a major life crisis of one sort or another. At this point your spiritual connection becomes a lifeline and if it is not sound, you can easily find yourself psychologically and spiritually adrift. Such was my experience at FOG. As a result of this, I was forced to more fully clarify this validation factor -- how can I be sure that a specific message is really from my spiritual benefactors and not a product of my own psyche? Part of the problem is that when confronted with these major life crises, the psyche becomes very active and the task of differentiating the leading of the spirit from the needs of the psyche becomes substantially more difficult. It is in such a situation that one appreciates having a sound connection with this source of spiritual strength which labors so unremittingly within us.

 So one is forced by circumstances to construct a philosophical interface which is more durable, which has a greater amount of consistent integrity, to enable the mind-spirit connection to operate clearly in difficult times. As a result of being forced by circumstances to really go deeply within my psyche and grapple with this relationship on a level which I don't think most people normally encounter, I have arrived at certain conclusions about how this process works and how it doesn't, and these conclusions have been born out under extreme duress. So I don't abandon them lightly and I cringe when I see others making a commitment to a way of accessing spiritual sustenance which my experience would tell me has a high probability of failing when it is needed most, and at a time when it is most difficult to reconstruct it. But history has a way of repeating itself; if we don't learn the lessons on our own, the "University of Life" will not fail to force the issue.

 Some attention to philosophy and to a serious assessment of just how one is proceeding spiritually is most easily made at times when the life-transition stress ratio is relatively low, but most people, during such phases of their lives, are content to flow along with what feels best -- people don't want to make any trouble for themselves when life is not providing it for them.

 In addition to the above experiential encounter with these realities, I find much in the rationale provided by TM adherents which is simply not in accord with the model of reality which emerges in my mind as a result of studying the UB. Partially understood concepts of "encircuitment," "mind circuits," "spirit circuits," "circuits being opened." etc. are used as conceptual foundations upon which the TM premeses are justified. When such concepts are examined more carefully, one has no choice but to either say that the TM is an illusion because the conceptual foundations upon which it is presented are not real, or one must say that the TM is valid but it's adherents have not yet successfully identified the underlying ideational supports.

24 Jun 1993    Thea Hardy       Just a few...

Subject: Just a few... In-Reply-To: [9306241542.AA10963@kira.CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Hi all,

 David K., I must have interposed my comment on what Jesus would have said at the wrong time; my response was to something different, now lost in the shuffle. I tend to agree that your idea of his response is one definitely valid possibility. One thing I hope you understand: I don't think that it is necessary for you or anyone else to be part of the TM and I don't think that your path to the Father is in any way dependent on the TM. You are doing just fine, David, as far as I am concerned. Your relationship with the Father, which I know that you have, is all that matters. We are discussing this here from many standpoints, but personally I don't think the TM is something that anyone on this planet needs to participate in for their eternal survival etc. I see it as optional. Therefore, I am not interested in converting you. It is just that I came to the Urantia book for vastly different reasons than you. (It did not match the thought patterns of my background; I believed it to be vastly superior and to fit reality better than anything I had found, but in the end, my heart and soul picked the book). And my particular methods for accessing the Father in tough times, which has certainly been tested the past ten months, and for distinguishing what _I_ believe to be truth from what I believe to be falsehood are also probably quite different from yours. Certainly how I distinguish so-called truth from so-called falsehood is different. I have found it serviceable for many years now; it is a relationship with Michael wherein I call upon the Spirit of Truth at the crossroads. I cannot explain it in detail; I can only tell you that it works for me. It does not require every detail to be true before it accepts and embraces the truth contained. I do not think we can have any beliefs, institutions, processes etc on this planet that are perfectly true; all of it here is provisional. I err in taking on some tares with my wheat. So be it; I have found that it works for me. And I do not think that you ought to do the same; Michael meant what he said when he said we are not all to think alike. This goes for our very methods of solving these most important of problems, I think. Certainly I learn much by listening to you and others discuss how they come to their opinions on this and other things. I only ask that you not come to think that your way of ascertaining truth is automatically valid for me and for all. I respect you very much, and as I said, do appreciate more deeply than I have made clear that you have loving concern for those of us involved in the TM as a result of your own experiences. Only time will resolve that one, one way or another. David, I don't know how it happens in this virtual space, but despite our disagreements, I have come to love you and others on this net. There is simply no other word for it. To me that counts for everything, and our little disagreements count for very little. Keep on being as true to yourself as you know how to be and I do not see how you can go wrong in the end. Whether or not your mind is as open as it could be is a situation between you and the Father, not you and any of the rest of us. If you are at peace in that catagory, that is all that counts. I love the TM and what it has done for my life and the life of others. FOr years I craved seeing the UB come alive in the lives of people and now, to my mind, it is. Yes, there are tares amongst the wheat. I do see them, and my personal method is to let them be (barring some extremes beyond tares). Sufficient unto the day are the troubles thereof. They will be thrashed out. I have some concerns, despite that statement, and I discuss them and keep out an eagle eye (I am known to have that eagle eye, yes) but I try, like a good parent would, to not interfere in the development of other people's religious experience just because I see some little human foibles here and there. I do not want to be a spiritual vigilante. I am not accusing you of this, David. I just am saying where I come from. If my methods are wrong, and they have served me well for many years, then I will find it out. I try my very, very best to discern and live out truth, beauty and goodness the best that I can. This is all that I can do. I fully believe that you do the same. And the differences in how we do this are a necessary and even important part of how this universe works; they are an example of the diversity contained in the evolving Supreme. We are both doing just fine, IMHO. And I send you and Rebecca my love and hugs.

25 Jun 1993    Thea Hardy       A quick one for Fred

Subject: A quick one for Fred In-Reply-To: [9306250335.AA16516@kira.CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Fred, thanks for your presence here. I know others may not appreciate your transcript quotes, but I do. They are not excessive in length and are pertinent and timely. I appreciate the uplift. I enjoy the truth from whatever source as the UB enjoins us to do. I figure that if I am enjoined to study other human religions on this planet, complete with their limitations, and take the truth from them, that even were I not interested in becoming aligned with the TM, I could study it and take the truth from it likewise. That is exactly how I came to the TM in the first place. I certainly saw the imperfections and I still do, but the truth that I felt after a sincere pursuit over time was sufficient to generate a commitment in me. I have never regretted it. Were I to find out tomorrow that the TM was a so-called manifestation of human mind, I would not regret it. I have simply never had such a deep experience of living what the UB itself teaches. To turn my back on the TM would be, in my own understanding, to turn my back on what the UB teaches. I do not mean here, turning my back on the details and nuts and bolts of the teaching mission - the adjudication et al - but the heart of it - seeking the Father and trying to truly love my brothers and sisters as myself. I have always thought that about the UB itself - that the important part is the message, is what Michael lived, and not the nuts and bolts of cosmology etc which is not inspired, or how it came into being etc. I search for the truth and I try to live it; about facts I care much less in the spiritual realm. I use facts for science and other aspects, but in the end, the truly spiritual is definitely a steaming out of the harbor on faith. I am gratified that I have been able to lurch at least a bit out onto the living waters of that vast ocean, and eternally grateful to the Father who has made such a thing possible.

26 Jun 1993    David Kantor      On Integration

Subject: On Integration

 June 26, 1993 Lafayette, CA

 

 Hello, Friends of the ether...

 Leo, I don't view my use of the UB as a form of literalism; it seems to me that one has two choices here, to read it as a literal view of the cosmos or as a metaphoric stimulus to the creation of one's own intellectual constructs. I take virtually *all* intellectual views of reality as metaphoric -- useful meaning constructs which help us arrive at a better implementation of moral and spiritual values in our interactions with our fellows, but only crude approximations of objective reality. But this does not negate their utility, nor render the quest for better intellectual approximations a futile undertaking.

 Your comments about tools are well taken. However, I would point out that the nature of the medium in which we are communicating seems to skew intellectual constructs toward "the use of the tool rather than to the possibilities of the experience." While I utilize intellectual constructs as tools hereon to express and manipulate ideas, in my personal experience it is a completely different reality. I tried to express it in an earlier post as "an intellectual framework upon which my experience of God is projected..." Perhaps the following quotes express this reality more clearly:

 Page-1217 "Mind is the cosmic instrument on which the human will can play the discords of destruction, or upon which this same human will can bring forth the exquisite melodies of God identification and consequent eternal survival."

 Page-1216 "Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves."

 Page-398 "The capacity of material creatures to effect spirit response is entirely dependent on the associated mind endowment..."

 Page-1216 "Though the work of Adjusters is spiritual in nature, they must, perforce, do all their work upon an intellectual foundation. Mind is the human soil from which the spirit Monitor must evolve the morontia soul with the co-operation of the indwelt personality."

 These and other ideas encountered in the UB lead me to believe that not only are my intellectual constructs important, but they are crucial to the effective functioning of my spiritual benefactors. It seems to me that a rich intellectual environment provides my spiritual benefactors with more material to work with, more material to draw upon for metaphoric and analogic communication with me. Consider the following:

 Page-1135 "A logical and consistent philosophic concept of the universe cannot be built up on the postulations of either materialism or spiritism, for both of these systems of thinking, when universally applied, are compelled to view the cosmos in distortion, the former contacting with a universe turned inside out, the latter realizing the nature of a universe turned outside in. Never, then, can either science or religion, in and of themselves, standing alone, hope to gain an adequate understanding of universal truths and relationships without the guidance of human philosophy and the illumination of divine revelation."

 If you are truly interested in the issue check out "Philosophic Coordination" on page 1135.

 As I hope to cover below in my response to Bob Slagle, it is not an either/or path -- either intellectual or spiritual -- it is an integrated path which seems optimal to me, a path with coordinated growth in all areas which is most effective in expanding consciousness.

 Bob Slagle, I thought your response to my post re the Teaching Mission was a well expressed, heart-felt view of your experience. I have no desire to simply deconstruct your views, but rather would like to present a somewhat contrasting interpretation of what we are all experiencing as a result of having encountered the Urantia Book in our personal struggles to find God and understand His purposes for our lives.

 I will reproduce your post below in a somewhat narrower margin than my responses (no metaphoric implications intended).

  >From Bob Slagle to David Kantor 6/21/93 "Balance: The Loop to God is Open"

 Your point regarding balance among science, religion and philosophy is well taken. And, imho, it is because so many of us intellectual types are so far out of balance that the values of the Teaching Mission rightly emphasize the spiritual.

 To me, the UB attracts primarily those of large intellect. The heady tendencies of the associated organizations is well shown by the repeated stuckness in the paralysis of analysis that sets in when people use the brain in deference to the heart. In fact, don't most of the problems of western technology and materialism emerge from a path with much mind and little or no heart? I think so. Imo, David, in general we are already way over philosophical, over analytical, over intellectual -- what we need now is love, as the book says, a feeling too deep for words. No, I would not abandon the great gift of mind, but mind without a balance of heart is potentially dangerous.

 It is over intellectual development that we are faced with in the 20th century, not over spiritual development. As I see it, what we very much need now is the spiritual growth to counter the dangerous degree of over intellectual development most UB readers suffer from right now!

 *David responds;

 Bob, I think this is a pretty good assessment of a basic problem in our world, but I see the solution as one of the *integration* of material and spiritual reality rather than sacrificing one for the other. Coming out of an historic period which has been overly secular, overly materialistic, it is natural for the pendulum to swing in the opposite direction. I see this as one of the great dangers of the present time and perhaps one of the reasons why we have the Urantia Book today.

 One can see the pendulum swinging all around the world. The great danger that I see is that as the pendulum swings back away from material secularism, it is fundamentalism that we see precipitating out of the social milieu, and we see this in Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist cultures as well in the Christianized world. The danger in the present moment is that as humanity reverts to social groupings formed along the lines of the ancient religions, when this is combined with the stresses of over population, the rapidly deteriorating ecological environment, the competition for natural resources, and so on, the potential for religious wars comes once again to the fore on the stage of history. The potential for disaster is enormous.

 The Urantia Book, imo, makes a clear case for the *integration* of science, philosophy and religion as the optimal stabilizing influence in human culture. So to simply abandon the gains of the scientific revolution we've experienced and focus solely on the spiritual is to fuel this trend which I believe the UB is here to help mitigate.

 I do not see any validity in saying that if I become wholly spiritual I am compensating for the scientist who is wholly materialistic. Such a course of action would simply be a perpetuation of the basic problem, one of a lack of balance and integration *within* the life of each individual. Such a course, imo, would be a serious error.

 Consider the following:

 

 Page-43 "The great mistake of the Hebrew religion was its failure to associate the goodness of God with the factual truths of science and the appealing beauty of art. As civilization progressed, and since religion continued to pursue the same unwise course of overemphasizing the goodness of God to the relative exclusion of truth and neglect of beauty, there developed an increasing tendency for certain types of men to turn away from the abstract and dissociated concept of isolated goodness. The overstressed and isolated morality of modern religion, which fails to hold the devotion and loyalty of many twentieth-century men, would rehabilitate itself if, in addition to its moral mandates, it would give equal consideration to the truths of science, philosophy, and spiritual experience, and to the beauties of the physical creation, the charm of intellectual art, and the grandeur of genuine character achievement. "The religious challenge of this age is to those farseeing and forward-looking men and women of spiritual insight who will dare to construct a new and appealing philosophy of living out of the enlarged and exquisitely integrated modern concepts of cosmic truth, universe beauty, and divine goodness. Such a new and righteous vision of morality will attract all that is good in the mind of man and challenge that which is best in the human soul. Truth, beauty, and goodness are divine realities, and as man ascends the scale of spiritual living, these supreme qualities of the Eternal become increasingly co-ordinated and unified in God, who is love."

 In spite of your discomfort at any appeal for philosophic integrity, Bob, here is the Urantia Book *specifically* stating that the challenge of our age is the construction of a new and appealing *philosophy* of living, and that we can rehabilitate our religious heritage by giving *equal* consideration to science, philosophy and religion. This seems to be a pretty clear mandate to me.

 I could provide you with many, many other sections of the book which address this issue of integration of the "three inalienables of human experience" -- this emphasis on integration, imo, is one of the major challenges presented to us by our unseen friends through the book.

 

 >Bob Slagle's post continues;

 The UB, imo, is of little present value if there are not readers who will actually practive LOVE in the simple person-to-person way that Jesus taught. While many people study the Book, talk about the Book, argue about issues in the Book, discuss the origins of the Book, organize topics from the Book, write papers about topics in the Book, disagree about how to disseminate the Book, search for quotations in the Book, debate who understands passages in the Book, gather with those who have similar views of the Book, -- I ask, who will live the Book?

 *David responds;

 These are important points and I think we should all pay close attention to them. But it doesn't require a supposed "Teaching Mission" for me to appreciate the values inherent in your statement -- they should be pretty obvious to anyone who has made a serious attempt to apprehend the teachings of the UB.

 

 >Bob continues;

 Now on the matter of closed loops. David, I ask you, when Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you, is this a closed loop? I think you have created a tautology where none exists. This would be a closed loop, if I had only my intellect to rely on. However, there are within me (and you) vast spiritual resources we can call on at will.

 My ability to seek the Father or the Spirit of Truth does not require that I be able to solve a logical riddle, or debate a philosophical issue, or measure an empirical variable -- this connection is direct, irrefutable, experiential, and immediate. It is a gift from God. And I am so grateful that I am not required to explicate him, or define him, or have a philosophical context for him in rder to directly experience him and know of a certainty that he is real and true and good.

 *David responds;

 The closed loop to which I referred is a closed loop of subjective experience validating subjective interpretations of the same experience, but I see no value in pursuing this point with you. Many of the other points you make in the above paragraph are important realizations of the reality and importance of the Divine contact, but they don't validate the TM, neither do they rely on the TM, conceptually or in practice, for their realization in the life of a truth-seeker.

 

 >Bob continues;

 David, it seems that you view truth as something to be pursued logically, a dialectic. I remind you that the UB tells us that truth is a possession of the soul and not a fact of mind. And my soul does not require philosophy, logic, science, or intellection to be real, alive, and truth discerning.

 *David responds;

 I challenge you to find *any* statement in the UB which would even imply that "truth is a possession of the soul." Truth is not something which can be possessed. It is an experiential attribute of Divinity, much like beauty and goodness. Can these values be possessed? No. They can only be experientially apprehended. I can point you to a lot of places where truth is described as "living." The dialectic process, taking place between sincere truth seekers, imo, creates a context in which living truth can be discerned and apprehended by the individuals so engaged. It is not a process by which one side or the other "dominates" or "wins" on the basis of logic or display of factual knowledge. I would ask you to reconsider your statement in light of the following:

 Page-1435 Knowledge is the sphere of the material or fact-discerning mind. Truth is the domain of the spiritually endowed intellect that is conscious of knowing God. Knowledge is demonstrable; truth is experienced. Knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul, the progressing self. Knowledge is a function of the nonspiritual level; truth is a phase of the mind-spirit level of the universes. The eye of the material mind perceives a world of factual knowledge; the eye of the spiritualized intellect discerns a world of true values. These two views, synchronized and harmonized, reveal the world of reality, wherein wisdom interprets the phenomena of the universe in terms of progressive personal experience.

 

 Here we see *knowledge* as a possession of mind. *Truth* is seen as an *experience* of the soul, while the domain in which truth comes into existence is in the integration of factual knowledge and spiritualized intellect. See also my quote from page 1135 in my response to Leo above. Note that it is *wisdom* which interprets the phenomena of the universe based on the integration of factual knowledge and true values. Leaving out either the values or the factual knowledge will provide an extremely distorted view of the world and handicap wisdom in her task.

 >Bob continues:

 The loop to God is never a closed loop; and there is an outer loop also, that being the confirmation of experiential reality by the now thousands of humans who have sought and experienced contact with invisible beings which the UB has so beautifully portrayed to us in advance. There is no rebuttal to the Teaching Mission. It is not a logical construct; it is a living experience. Therefore the only appropriate epistemology is experiential, soul discernment. Those who do not want contact with Christ Michael's heavenly Teachers are not forced or coerced to receive such a loving gift. Heaven honors your right to spurn Jesus' friendly Teachers. Your free will is honored with no judgements about your spiritual choices. However, if you are sincerely interested in the Truth of whether or not there really are celestial Teachers, discrete personalities contacting us via newly opened mind circuits, this is a matter of private experience not intellectual arguments nor theological contexts. If a perosn wants the truth then it is necessary (for most of us) to actually seek silent communion with the Father daily, overcome our fears, and sincerely ask him to reveal this truth.

 *David responds;

 These comments reveal the intellectual sophistry of the "Teaching Mission." Given the above quotes from the UB, if the "Teaching Mission" is indeed a valid universe phenomenon, it must integrate with the level of factual knowledge and philosophic coordination at some point. Here is where the entire concept breaks down. You would have us simply ignore the call for intellectual integrity. Regardless of how you feel about the role of philosophy, you must recognize the above paragraph as a philosophical articulation of the nature of the "Teaching Mission." How sound are your philosophic conclusions? How much attention are you paying to your philosophic formulations?

 Consider the statement on page 1113 that, "The soundness of philosophic conclusions depends on keen, honest, and discriminating thinking in connection with sensitivity to meanings and accuracy of evaluation." Consider also;

 Page-1104 "The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind."

 The philosophic premises of the "Teaching Mission" which are based on an abandonment of rational thought and philosophic interpretation seem to be at serious odds with the above and other direct statements about the issue in the Urantia Book.

 (The "Teaching Mission" claims about "newly opened mind circuits" are another oversimplification of partially understood concepts from the Urantia Book, but that is a topic for a different time.)

 >Bob continues;

 Teacher contact is subtle, it is a part of God's plan for us but must be sincerely sought. This often requires many days or months of dedicated stillness practice for a clear and unequivocal Truth confirmation. So, David, if you have not sought Teacher contact within yourself during your times of communion, arguments become, to me, increasingly irrelevant and meaningless.

 (Bob, I know you well enough to assume that you are not really as dogmatic about this as the last sentence above would indicate -- or do you really think that anyone not involved in the "Teaching Mission" cannot possibly have a knowledge of God or an intimate contact with his/her spiritual benefactors?)

 If you are telling me that you have sincerely asked in your quiet heart and find no confirmation for the reality of the Teachers, great, I honor your allegiance to your own experience. (However, I have yet to hear anything like a comprehensive explanation for the messages you received in 84-85, which you told me you were absolutely certain of on more than one occassion)

 (Explanations have been offered and rejected by you because they didn't meet your preconceptions. Every time I've tried to communicate this to you, you have responded by telling *me* what happened rather than hearing what I've had to say about it.)

 But please speak to me of your experience that disconfirms heavenly contact, not your philosophy.

 *David responds;

 My experience of prayerful communion and worship has led me to develop a very workable contact with my spiritual benefactors, one which continues to be quite productive and seems to produce noticable growth (at least as seen from my subjective viewpoint) but this has nothing to do with a "Teacher Mission." I maintain that the whole concept of the "Teacher Mission" as an explanation for the enhanced spiritual contact which many of us are experiencing as a result of assimilating some of the ideas presented in the Urantia Book is an over-simplification, a result of failing to do essential, difficult intellectual work in order to truly understand what is happening. You essentially defend the "Teaching Mission" as a religious cult designed for people who are tired of thinking and as such I think it falls somewhat short of the ideals of religion presented in the Urantia Book.

 

 >Bob continues;

 I must add that your post some time back about prayer-worship-etc wherein you totally activate your mind or all 7 adjutants, caught my attention. Such activity would of course be a certain way to assure that you do not have Teacher contact (perhaps that is your intent, it certainly is your right). Totally activated mind is a thorough defense against Teacher contact.

 Jesus instructed us to make the mind quiet for a few minutes after prayer to better allow the Adjuster to speak to the listening soul (1641:1). Do you keep your Adjutants busy during this time as well?

 *David responds;

 Absolutely. If you go back and read the full quote you cite (1641:1) you will find that "The spirit of the Father speaks best to man when the human mind is in an attitude of true worship. We worship God by the aid of the Father's indwelling spirit and by the illumination of the human mind through the ministry of truth."

 Again we see a call for *integrated* functioning of the personality system, even in the act of worship. Appreciate the fact that the adjutant mind spirits are *spirit presences*, derivatives of the cosmic mind. The mortal mind circuits (I can provide substantial references on this if you are really interested) are biological; they exist in the human neurological system; they are *material*. They are receptive to adjutant presence. It is not a question of "keeping the adjutants busy." They are relatively existential. It is a question of how much of their presence I wish to be conscious of. I have some degree of control here and I have *experientially* found that the highest, most qualitative and emotionally significant experience of worship is when the system is fully functioning in an integrated, unified way.

 This is my *experience*, Bob, not a philosophic construct. I have tried many different approaches to worship and apprehension of the ministry of my spiritual benefactors over the years ranging from chemically altering my nervous system to Zen meditation to creating illusions of celestial contact. I have experientially come to appreciate the value and significance of being fully human, striving for full integration of all aspects of the experience of selfhood, as leading to the maximum qualitative and quantitative experience of God consciousness, and that, my friend, is indeed the bottom line and the final criteria by which I evaluate all this stuff!

 Recall just what these adjutant mind-spirits provide:

 Page-401 "The seven adjutant mind-spirits are called by names which are the equivalents of the following designations: intuition, understanding, courage, knowledge, counsel, worship, and wisdom."

 Aren't these desirable qualities to have as a part of one's worship experience? Recall that the purpose of the Spirit of Wisdom, the last mind spirit to begin functioning, is to *integrate* the functioning of all the others. The Spirit of Worship is not the highest -- it requires the Spirit of Wisdom for integration with the others. Any attempt to shut down the functioning of any of these mind spirits in order to facilitate the functioning of certain others, specifically thwarts the efforts of the Spirit of Wisdom to integrate the whole and opens the door to fanaticism and experiences of the trans-marginal regions of the psyche. Yet this seems to be what you are advocating in your dis-integrated approach to spiritual contact; you state that such action is essential to being able to hear the "teachers." Consider the following:

 Page-66 "True worship, in the last analysis, becomes an experience realized on four cosmic levels: the intellectual, the morontial, the spiritual, and the personal--the consciousness of mind, soul, and spirit, and their unification in personality."

 And:

 Page-66 "Sincere worship connotes the mobilization of all the powers of the human personality under the dominance of the evolving soul and subject to the divine directionization of the associated Thought Adjuster."

 Yes, Bob; worship to me connotes the fully integrated functioning of the mortal mechanism, not a technique of isolating and fostering only the "religious impulse," -- the Spirit of Worship.

 The implications in your posts are that the apprehension of spiritual values is the primary goal of human existence, and that everything else becomes insignificant in the pursuit of this task. I do not get this sense from a reading of the Urantia Book. What I find therein, is a high value being placed on personality integration, with the apprehension of spiritual values being a significant means to this end. The conquest of the seven psychic circles is presented as "the sum total of personality realization on a material world." Consider:

 Page-1209 "The psychic circles are not exclusively intellectual, neither are they wholly morontial; they have to do with personality status, mind attainment, soul growth, and Adjuster attunement. The successful traversal of these levels demands the harmonious functioning of the entire personality, not merely of some one phase thereof. The growth of the parts does not equal the true maturation of the whole; the parts really grow in proportion to the expansion of the entire self--the whole self--material, intellectual, and spiritual."

 Page-1209 "When the development of the intellectual nature proceeds faster than that of the spiritual, such a situation renders communication with the Thought Adjuster both difficult and dangerous. Likewise, overspiritual development tends to produce a fanatical and perverted interpretation of the spirit leadings of the divine indweller."

 Page-1210 "The conquest of these levels of cosmic evolution is reflected in three ways: 1. Adjuster attunement. The spiritizing mind nears the Adjuster presence proportional to circle attainment. 2. Soul evolution. The emergence of the morontia soul indicates the extent and depth of circle mastery. 3. Personality reality. The degree of selfhood reality is directly determined by circle conquest. Persons become more real as they ascend from the seventh to the first level of mortal existence."

 This is a pretty clear presentation; note that the approach to the Adjuster presence is proportional to the degree to which the mortal has been successful in achieving integrated material, intellectual and spiritual growth. Even the emergence of the soul as a reality and the qualitative experience of selfhood is proportional to circle conquest. These richer states of consciousness simply cannot be attained without a full integration of all the resources of the personality.

 So whatever the reasons that lead you to espouse the "Teacher Mission," Bob, they do not appear to me to be consistent with the description of reality and the challenges to invade new levels of intellectual living which are given to us in the pages of the Urantia Book.

 I believe that any religious philosophy which claims to be based on the teachings of the Urantia Book *must* make this challenge to be about the conquest of the seven psychic circles, a task which calls for *integrated* growth and development, a central component of its message.

 >Bob continues:

 However, aside from personal experiential seeking, what remains of the Teaching Mission to be discussed? What about values? I hear all these objections to the Mission yet no one seems to address values. Are there values stated via transmissions that you disagree with David? If you read my paper, what are the values portrayed?

 The Fatherhood of God, the brotherhood of man? Yes. The gift of sonship and daughtership? Yes. The total validity of the Urantia Book? Yes. The crucial role of fairness in human interplay? Yes. The importance of living Jesus' teachings in our daily lives? Yes. The respect for free will? Yes. The seeking of communion with God daily? Yes. The doing of small kindnesses as often as possible? Yes. I find these to be the same teachings as in the UB. So, David, what is it that you so object to?

 *David responds;

 Bob, I share these values with you. But again, I have not needed to accept the "Teaching Mission" in order to apprehend them. I might add that these values are sought and implemented by religionists from many different regions of the planet; they are the values of advancing spiritual experience and not the exclusive possession of adherents of the "Teaching Mission."

 My objections remain a sense that the "Teaching Mission" is an overly simplified, erroneously derived explanation for the mind- spirit link and as such is potentially evil in its scope of distortion of the ideas contained in the Urantia Book, its neglect of philosophic and intellectual integrity in its ideational formulations, and its abandonment of the personal quest for the unification of things, meanings and values to which the Urantia Book challenges us. Such gross oversights can do nothing other than pave the way for psychological and religious excesses which will eventually destroy any spiritual gains made by the "Teaching Mission." Short-term gains at the expense of long-term development does not strike me as a viable way to go about the tasks of personal spiritual growth or planetary renewal.

 Thank you, Bob, for sharing your ideas and providing this opportunity to respond. I appreciate your fervent desire to know God and do his will, and the opportunity to share the mortal sojourn with you.

 

26 Jun 1993    Matthew Rapaport              Various sundry subjects

Subject: Various sundry subjects

 Been a few hours and I'm only up to the 24th of June... But I wanted to get this so far to the list before bed...

 First of all, I happen to agree with what David did/said regarding the Brotherhood/FEF stand/statement-of-purpose, etc. regarding the TM. I don't believe for a minute that he believed he should or would stop individuals from *talking* about the TM. But to adopt either the TM (which as I have said above *is* a dogma, one of many possible), or the political platform of the TM (to become the "skeletal framework around which the religion of Jesus would/could grow, etc." (I'm paraphrasing here of course), would be a mistake in my opinion as well as David's.

 This is *not* the same thing as barring TM believers from joining FEF or what ever as *individuals*. It would be a mistake, however to make the TM in some way an integral part of the brotherhood/FEF. Both mistakes are related (the first indirectly, the latter directly) to the same problem. The fostering of the Urantia Book is *not* the same thing as the fostering of the religion of Jesus. The Book *contains* the religion of Jesus. It also contains much more, and that is the rub! I've called my friend Charles Lamar who back in 1978 or so wrote what remains the definitive analysis of the difference between the UB (per se) and the Religion of Jesus. I will see if he has ever placed that paper in electronic form. If so, I will upload it to the list. For those who might remember it, it was called "A Philosophy of Public Ministry" or something like that. *********

 On the subject of WWIII and the interesting time line. Nowhere in any of the recanting of events of 1983-85 that I've seen was anything mentioned about an announcement regarding the averting of disaster from the celestials allegedly in contact with Vern, David, Sarah, etc. Doesn't anyone think this is strange? Doesn't anyone think this is sort of out-of-character for these folks (the celestials)? Here we have 30 or so people who radically alter their lives for three years in an effort to comply with divine instructions, and nary a word is said (when its all over) of thanks, or explanation as to why the event didn't transpire.

 Now to me, this is at least evidence (if circumstantial) suggesting the correctness of David's interpretation and against Bob Slagel's (just picking you as a representative Bob) interpretation. **********

 WSS and the UB... Well Leo I just don't buy it. WSS may have been all the things you say (and you criticize David K's characterization of Vern G. ?? :-) ??), but to suppose that he altered whole sections of it (e.g. lifting all (but one??? - there is one you know...) references to reincarnation), one must also suppose that he altered all other parts that would relate to it, directly or indirectly. For example, the entire scheme of the personality ascent (by the UB's reconning) is fundamentally incompatible with any literal interpretation of the notion of reincarnation that I've ever heard...

 I've read many philosophers of the period 1850 to 1930 or so, religious and otherwise. Yes it was in a way a golden age of literary expression, but none of it (including Sabatier) has anywhere near the scope of the UB. The UB is a system. It has an internal consistency and set of self references that make it, in my mind, highly unlikely that any individual could have materially altered some one or more parts of it for their own purposes.

 If you want to suppose this, you must perforce reject its revelatory status as a whole. This doesn't make it a bad book, or mean that it contains no truth, but now no more then other human works of an inspirational nature (some better then others of course). Anyone, of course, is free to believe this about the UB. I'm sure there are many who have read it, and believe just exactly this, without knowing anything about WSS, or the Book's secular history. Ironically, however, the TM itself has affirmed the Book's revelatory status. Therefore if you reject the Book's status, you must also reject the TM's claims to divine inditement. ********

27 Jun 1993    Sara L. Blackstock    Personal experiences

Subject: Personal experiences

 Hello all,

 Pat S. - I really enjoyed your personal sharing about the rainbow when you were praying and asking for greater faith. Aren't these little vignettes we "get" a breath of fresh air for our soul? Children love to draw rainbows - they have such an archetypal and symbolic significance, even to those who have no wordy philosophy or explanations. Once in a while a 10 or 11 year old will bring me such a drawing and it creates such a lightness in me to be on the receiving end of these "gifts". Thank you for your personal sharing. It enriches my soul. Also a long time ago, you said, "I think to dismiss the TM limits the definition and scope of prayer, in a way. Sara, do you agree just a teeny bit with this? Maybe channeling is just at a different end of the continuum from prayer?" Interesting question. I have dismissed the TM as being what people who are involved in it say it is and my prayer life has not been diminished at all. That is my personal experience. I do, however, think that "channeling" in general may be at a different end of some continuum; I think that we are all "channels". We are all being taught or at least have the capacity to be taught by the [greatest teachers] in the universe - our Thought Adjusters, the Master's spirit - the Spirit of Truth, and angels, to say nothing of our friends and our own minds and experiences. My mind says many of the same things to me often that "the teachers" are saying. These "teachings" are things that I have read and experienced and known and continue to get new insights on daily. I don't have any "personalities" telling me these things. The TM seems to be a creative and contagious drama which has hooked certain people. I can understand how it can be so appealing. It is a lot less certain to just go on what one knows after reading the UB for years and not have someone "talking" to them. It is a very deep desire to be part of something important and spiritual. We should have a couple of planetary govenmental headquarters where we could "hear" "them" talk about things of spiritual import. So we create these things. This is how it appears to me at this point in time. Have you ever spent time listening to children about the age of 5 or 6 talk about their imaginary adventures and friends? It is rather enlightening about the imaginary capacity of the mind. As David L. shared, children seem to create these alter egos especially in times of conflict or trouble. It is necessary to stay open to the living flowing waters of fliud truth, but getting caught in stagnant ponds of one's own imagination is not appealing to me, and I have been there. Some children are so good at denying the truth and are so far into their own space that it is very difficult to get them to let go. I am not sure if the analogy applies to all, but that is my personal experience, and regardless of the factual validity of the TM, it does seem that this experience is good for many.

 Leland, thanks for your personal sharing of finding the UB. Our study group misses your jokes. Keep sending them - I will pass them on!

 Bryon, the funny thing about doing jumping jacks is that you get stronger. Some of the kids with the most energy who get to do these often to help them control their negative energy are very strong kids! Now on to your post of last week regarding "lack of diligence as a researcher" (re: TM) My opinions regarding the TM are based on: (1) My understandings of the UB after reading it for 23 years (and still seeing things I have never "seen" on its pages) (2) Hearing FIRST HAND from a person who was at the death bed of Vince Ventola when "Ham" told him he was going to live as he was drawing his last breath; (3) Reading so many pages of transcripts from Florida and Indianapolis and Utah that I felt like I was caught in a repetitive void with errors so serious I could not abide to continue reading such a intertwining of error and truth; (4) My own experiences with being a "receiver" for 3 months every day. (5) Receiving two rather unclear, and unfocused "messages" from 2 different "teachers". (6) Having attended the "Ham" session in LA in 1992 where "Ham" spoke through Rebecca, taking down almost every word verbatim, and talking with many, many people, TR's and others who attended; (7) Having listened to a fellow who came to visit our study group from Woodscross, Utah who was on a mission to promulgate the TM; (8) Having spent hours talking with Bob Slagle about his experiences as a TR, and who also has a study group with TR's, and hearing his experiences FIRST HAND at Naperville, and with many others in the Bay area on this subject; (9) Having coordinated the forum on channeling this year in San Francisco and listening for hours to people share their first hand experiences for and against, and participating in a video production of same (10) AND having prayed with openess, seeking truth about this phenomena;

 I have concluded what I have been stating here for the past 3 months or so.

 But the thing I am most interested in now, is how can we all live together with integrity of expression of our own experiences and understandings, without negating each other, but not being wishy, washy about our own intellectual conceptualizations, in love and unity? I desire this greatly, for I think it is what Jesus would have us do. I must say, that this whole TM thing has stirred people to talk about and look at their own personal experiences. Controversy is probably good for discussion! How can those of us who are involved in organizations of readers of the UB respond to the needs of the readership and yet maintain the integrity of what such an organization/s needs to do and What is that? I find myself feeling that too much discussion is tedious regarding the TM, however I find it very difficult to let what appears to me to be error in the "messages" from superhuman teachers who should know more than we do, but should not be making such errors.

 Fred H. - I appreciate the spirit with which you desire to share the "teachings." As I stated above, I have heard many of these truths in my own mind, in my own life daily and often over the last 23 or so years, and I bet most of the rest of us have too. I am, however bothered by what seems to be an assumption that unless a "teacher" tells us the following, we are not doing it: "Why not begin today, right now, in a new and concentrated effort to serve our Father and to serve one another." In a sense we are always beginning, each day, to serve our Father and to serve one another, but some of us [began] it a long time ago. Some of us, 1000's of God loving people all over the planet practice their own forms of spiritual practices, most of which include some silence, and a lot more than 10 minutes each day. I think that it is rather presumptuous to assume that this has not been going on for centuries. I know 100's of students of the UB who have been experiencing prayer, communion, and worship for years. Where have some of you been, and what have you been doing all these years with the basic teachings of the Urantia Book? Another concept of the TM lesson on stillness of June 25 is stated in the lesson: "You will receive in the stillness a consciousness of a feeling of higher self awareness." For years my understanding of prayer, communion, and worship has been [self forgetfulness>. Am I incorrect in this? Or is there a misunderstanding here?

 David L. - A long time ago, you expressed an interest in doing some "word smithing with the UB and its history and "Inasmuch as the FOG event is an important part of the story, any old FOGgers willing to participate would likewise receive my gratitude." The experience of belonging to FOG was such a valuable one in almost every way that I can think of, AND I still continue to get insights into HOW, WHY, and WHAT. I would be very happy to participate and share my part in this story. Have you considered contacting Vern Grimsley? He lives in Oakhurst, CA and maybe would be interested in giving his side. I am not in touch with him, but our son, Nathan went to see him last year and was made very welcome by both Vern and Nancy. They have known him since he was a baby and they were very kind to him and me in the beginning days of FOG when I would carry my bundle to the FOG house and send out letters. That's an interesting part of the story too - how this kid of 12/13 at the time of the WWIII messages took the whole thing. I remember him standing in the kitchen a few months before we went into the shelter fully dressed in camouflage outfit ready for the war. He got some things that Bob and I would never have approved if we weren't expecting a war - dirt motocycle, a gun, and a camouflage outfit. He knew I was one of the ones getting the "messages" and when he came up out of the shelter he looked at me and basically told me - "You are crazy and I am not going to listen to you. Look what you did to your life. Don't tell me what to do!" He went right into drugs and trouble for the next 6 years, including becoming an insulin dependent diabetic a year after the "war". Now, after he has watched Bob and I and many of his dear friends from early childhood put their lives back together and continue with a strength and depth of character and experience, I think that he has respect for us. He is a strong 22 year old, supporting himself, has a strong relationship with a lovely young woman and has been in this monogamous relationship for 4 years, is almost a journeyman carpenter making more than I with 5 years of college and is going back to college himself. I share this for the historical value, and also perhaps for you Leo. You said something a while back about how difficult it is bringing your kids up through hard times - culturally and personally. I thought at that time to share with you our experience with our son. Through all the years of teenage trouble we were always there for him. It was very discouraging, but he learned a lot while still at home as he watched us get our lives back together. But the main thing that I think he has responded to and will continue to respond to is the loyalties which Bob and I have. Remember page 1094: "Children are permanently impressed only by the loyalties of their adult associates; precept or even example is not lastingly influential." We certainly did not set a good example for him in many ways, but through it all, our loyalites are clear. There is a list on page 2088 that tells us what the sacred human loyalties are: ".... personal honor, family love, religious obligation, social duty, and economic necessity". I am preparing a workshop for parents at IC 93 based on this quote. If you have any thoughts, any of you as parents, or examples of how you have seen this work, please share them with me.

29 Jun 1993    BOB SLAGLE             short notes & reply to David K

Subject: short notes & reply to David K of 6/26

 June 28, 1993

 From: Bob Slagle, Sebastopol, CA

 Dear Logondonters,

 Wow just three days off line and 40 some odd posts!

 What follows are brief notes to folks and a longer reply to David Kantor's post to me of 6/26

 Leland F. -- thanks for your note and questions. Unfortunately I'm between net addresses and got your last message on my slagle@sonoma.edu address. I'm still unfamiliar with many commands, sooo I lost your message. I want to answer all your inquiries so if you have a copy of your message please send it again to my compuserve address, 72103.3720@compuserve.com (I may try to answer from memory anyhow. :)

 Leo -- Nice stuff on faith and belief. I like your looking at the UB from different angles. I have no problem with your questioning it. I think you asked about step-parenting. I've done much. Also have chapters in my Family Meeting Handbook on combined families, custody, single parenting etc. This book is available from Family Relations Foundation, Box 462, Sebastopol, CA 95473 for $9 ppd. (ISBN 0-9614218-0-0) I heartily recommend Family Meetings (which the UB tells us Jesus used) to you and yours. I'd be happy to assist. I think I am scheduled to do a workshop on Family Meetings at IC93, though I haven't received confirmation from the Fellowship.

 Peg -- delightful post about your experience with the rainbow.

 DHL and others interested in UFOs -- for whatever it may be worth to you, a Teacher has this to say about UFOs. "...I can tell you that as you already know, there are indeed visitors to your world who hail from many distant places. They do not all travel the gravity circuits. There are those who travel in vehicular structures that you might label spaceships. This is a real phenomenon. While many of the supposed sightings I perceive as unreal, there are those who have witnessed such things. I would like to further clarify one point and that is, under no circumstances would any visitor be allowed to take aboard their vehicle and experiment, molest, probe or any of these things. This would be strictly forbidden and cannot happen." (Aug 26, 1992)

 Sara B. -- I enjoyed your post and agree on the importance of integrity of expression and being able to love and tolerate each other, too. IMO, this is a very important point. I looked carefully over your list of 10 bases for your views on the TM. I was especially struck by #10. If you have asked the Father for the truth about the TM and feel that your Spirit has invalidated its reality, then you have done all I could ask. I do think that the other 9 items may have broader horizons, especially the "errors" (what are they?), e.g., there is a larger context for Vinnie's death. I do not think Ham made any errors and to my knowledge there are very few errors in the transcripts I am familiar with, excepting perhaps predictions, and I think I read fairly critically.

 Thea H. -- very lovely stuff in your posts. Your love for people surely does come through in your writing.

 David K. -- Regarding your more lengthy post to me of 6/26, I agree about the pendulum swinging toward fundamentalism. To me this is why experiential religion is so important at this time, the religion of the spirit rather than of authority (cf. UB 1731ff). Perhaps your term "integration" is somewhat similar to what I attempted to emphasize by the word "balance" among religion, science, and philosophy.. Some of those who are over developed intellectually may not have a clue as to what spiritual experience is. Without such personal experience of spirituality what is there to integrate? How does one integrate an experience "too deep for words" into one's philosophy, if one has never had such an experience? I think balance and integration are both important.

 You say, "but I see the solution as one of the *integration* of material and spiritual reality rather than sacrificing one for the other." Since I made no suggestion of such sacrifice, I'm not sure why you use this terminology. Are you knocking over a straw man I had no part of? A few lines later you say, "So to simply abandon the gains of the scientific revolution we've experienced and focus solely on the spiritual is to fuel this trend...." Again, I find that I made no suggestion to abandon the gains of science nor have my Teachers. David, your comment, not being based on my words, seems another strawman I had no part of. Further down you say, "In spite of your discomfort at any appeal for philosophic integrity, Bob, ...." I have no discomfort with philosophic integrity nor did I say I did. I do have some discomfort with over intellectualized and so-called philosophy, not philosophical integrity. In fact, I desire it. I notice that you appear to have shifted terminology from "philosophy" in your earlier post to "philosophical integrity" in your reply to me. However the quote you provided dealt mostly with Truth, Beauty, and Goodness which strikes me as perhaps more spiritual than philosophical (probably a moot point). However since we have not defined our uses of the term "philosophy," I will leave this thread for now. I am developing a personal philosophy of living and am thrilled by the quotation you cited (which I love) on this. Did someone say a philosophy of living had to be heady, or intellectual? Mine is very simple: seek Stillness daily and reach out with small kindnesses.

 Further along you say, "But it doesn't require a supposed 'Teaching Mission' for me to appreciate the values inherent in your statement...." Of course, David. Another straw man? I made no such claim. The Teachers have added very little to the values so elegantly stated in the UB. Their importance to me is experiential, an intimate, loving, interpersonal dialogue with higher personalities. Like your Clayton experience, you had to have been there; transcripts don't fully compensate anymore than reading a description of what happened to you and others (and me) at Clayton could possibly convey the experience. A focused repetition of basic values in the UB is helpful to me. The Teaching Mission does this, but in no way am I suggesting that this must be so for others. Thea has well commented on this already.

 David, I quote you further, "The closed loop to which I referred is a closed loop of subjective experience validating subjective interpretations of the same experience, but I see no value in pursuing this point with you." I'm puzzled; why bother responding at all? I posed a question, "When Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within you, is this a closed loop?" Your choice not to reply seems capricious to me, David. Why have you chosen to opt out of discussing this most important philosophical issue?

 You continue, "Many of the other points you make in the above paragraph are important realizations of the reality and importance of the Divine contact, but they don't validate the TM, neither do they rely on the TM, conceptually or in practice, for their realization in the life of a truth-seeker." Again David, this seems a straw man. IMO, all in this sentence is correct, but I made no claim otherwise. I make no claim to be intellectually validating the Teaching Mission. It can only be validated experientially. As I said in the post you are replying to, "There is no rebuttal to the Teaching Mission. It is not a logical construct; it is a living experience. Therefore the only appropriate epistemology is experiential, soul discernment."

 David continues, "I challenge you to find *any* statement in the UB which would even imply that "truth is a possession of the soul." David, I may have inverted the words here, but you supplied the quote: "...knowledge is a possession of the mind; truth an experience of the soul...."

 David continues, "Leaving out either the values or the factual knowledge will provide an extremely distorted view of the world and handicap wisdom in her task." I agree. Again this seems a straw man in that I am not aware of saying or implying that either facts or values should be left out. I did say it is a matter of balance, and imo we (in general) have an overabundance of facts and a paucity of values _at this point in time_ on Urantia.

 David, your next comments relate to this paragraph that you quoted back to me, so I will include it.

 (Bob)The loop to God is never a closed loop; and there is an outer loop also, that being the confirmation of experiential reality by the now thousands of humans who have sought and experienced contact with invisible beings which the UB has so beautifully portrayed to us in advance. There is no rebuttal to the Teaching Mission. It is not a logical construct; it is a living experience. Therefore the only appropriate epistemology is experiential, soul discernment. Those who do not want contact with Christ Michael's heavenly Teachers are not forced or coerced to receive such a loving gift. Heaven honors your right to spurn Jesus' friendly Teachers. Your free will is honored with no judgments about your spiritual choices. However, if you are sincerely interested in the Truth of whether or not there really are celestial Teachers, discrete personalities contacting us via newly opened mind circuits, this is a matter of private experience not intellectual arguments nor theological contexts. If a person wants the truth then it is necessary (for most of us) to actually seek silent communion with the Father daily, overcome our fears, and sincerely ask him to reveal this truth.

 Now, your response is:

 "These comments reveal the intellectual sophistry of the "Teaching Mission." Given the above quotes from the UB, if the "Teaching Mission" is indeed a valid universe phenomenon, it must integrate with the level of factual knowledge and philosophic coordination at some point. Here is where the entire concept breaks down. You would have us simply ignore the call for intellectual integrity. Regardless of how you feel about the role of philosophy, you must recognize the above paragraph as a philosophical articulation of the nature of the "Teaching Mission."

 Another set of straw men, as best I can understand you, David. If the sophistry you allege is that the TM is based on a philosophy but claims not to be philosophical, not so. Of course the Teaching Mission has an associated philosophy. And, imo, it does integrate beautifully into factual knowledge, philosophical coordination, The Urantia Book, and all other relevant dimensions. Again, I don't know what you have construed from me as meaning I would have you ignore intellectual integrity. I never said that. I am concerned about the over heady, over intellectual imbalance I see among some UB readers, me, and others. I merely suggest a big dose off love to compensate this imbalance. IMO, part of intellectual integrity is balance and not overemphasizing the intellectual in a world where we are held accountable before the bar of human suffering, not the bar of Mensa.

 To your quiries: "How sound are your philosophic conclusions? How much attention are you paying to your philosophic formulations?" I will stand by my philosophy of living and my conclusions, but I assure you that no philosophical conclusion will ever pre-empt the validity of my personal experiential knowing. This is my epistemological position. You have quoted many passages from the UB. As I have mentioned, I do not have FVUB, so I am not as facile at uploading UB passages. However, there are many references to truth being experiential (I will provide them if you wish). Yes, I have experienced contact with ascendant personalities (which is available to anyone who seeks). No, this is not an "interpretation" of my experience, it IS my experience. As the book says on196:4 the ability to grasp and be aware of other personalities, human or or higher is an innate ability of humankind. This is a direct perception and did not require that I have a philosophy or theory of consciousness before hand.

 You go on, "The philosophic premises of the "Teaching Mission" which are based on an abandonment of rational thought and philosophic interpretation seem to be at serious odds with the above and other direct statements about the issue in the Urantia Book." Where is your data, David? Please state the philosophic premises you refer to. Please state your basis for your allegation that the TM is based on abandonment of rational thought and philosophic interpretation. What I said was, "I would not abandon the great gift of mind, but mind without a balance of heart is potentially dangerous."

 David you continue here with material that makes less and less sense to me. Perhaps you would clarify.

 (quoting Bob)Teacher contact is subtle, it is a part of God's plan for us but must be sincerely sought. This often requires many days or months of dedicated stillness practice for a clear and unequivocal Truth confirmation. So, David, if you have not sought Teacher contact within yourself during your times of communion, arguments become, to me, increasingly irrelevant and meaningless.

 (quoting David)(Bob, I know you well enough to assume that you are not really as dogmatic about this as the last sentence above would indicate -- or do you really think that anyone not involved in the "Teaching Mission" cannot possibly have a knowledge of God or an intimate contact with his/her spiritual benefactors?)

 The above is a non sequitur to me David. What have you read into my sentence you refer to that would lead you to imply that I think anyone not in the TM cannot know God? As you well know, this is absurd. I think you are putting words in my virtual mouth, my friend. I will attempt a brief restatement. IMO, the Teaching Mission can only be validated by personal experience. If you have not sincerely sought that personal inner experience how can you claim this Mission is not real?

 Then you put in parentheses, I assume referring to the Clayton episode, (Explanations have been offered and rejected by you [Bob] because they didn't meet your preconceptions. Every time I've tried to communicate this to you, you have responded by telling *me* [David] what happened rather than hearing what I've had to say about it.) If I am guilty of failing to listen, David, you have my apology, and I desire to hear you. By your tone, it sounds like we have had many discussions. I'm not aware of any real discussions other than the Forum where you and I exchanged pleasantries but hardly discussed the Clayton episode or the Mission. Please refresh my memory, what are you referring to.

 David your final comments again do not seem based on anything I have claimed. Consider your comment, "You essentially defend the "Teaching Mission" as a religious cult designed for people who are tired of thinking...." Really? Because someone seeks truth as a soul experience, does that make him tired of thinking or defaulting on hard intellectual work? Because someone emphasizes the spiritual to counterbalance an over intellectualized viewpoint, does this mean that integration is unimportant or that intellect is unimportant? No. Are those who object to the Teaching Mission fearful of seeking stillness (which I also find to be mental hard work) intelligently and diligently? Perhaps some people fear a new level of spiritual contact? If there are those who are fearful, I repeat, the Teachers are gentle, benign, loving, accepting, and entirely nonjudgmental. You may have a different path to God wherein you choose not to be involved in this Mission. The Teachers are so respectful of this. Are some detractors afraid this Mission will threaten comfort zones, presumptions of authority, political station and existent organizations? In my experience this Mission poses no threat to any of these. To experiment with new levels of intellectual and spiritual living is exciting, and the Teaching Mission is a direction that offers much spiritual adventure. Remember from the Book, truth is alive, thrilling, always moving. It strikes me that many who vehmently reject the Mission, know little about it, and often monger in stereotypes (sordid spiritualism, cultism, irrationalism, etc.) without giving documentation or reasoned thought for their claims. There appears much misinformation and erroneous ideation about the Teaching Mission in certain postings, more than could easily be corrected, even if correction were desired.

 All of your final points, quotes from the Book, comments and questions about wisdom are well said, David, and I agree. But I don't see much relation to or addressing of my post. You seem to have bypassed my point and gone on to elaborate on things I basically agree with. My main point was, if you activate all your neural circuits (per your post of some time ago) when you seek within, this is not a practice that is likely to validate or falsify contact with Teachers. Let me ask you a question, David. *IF* you became convinced that in truth, beautiful, ascendant personalities were making contact with humans and befriending us, would you want such contact yourself? Would you be interested in meeting and learning from fused mortals from Jerusem who were visiting Urantia and contacting humans at Michael's request?

 I have written this rather extended reply to your post David, in part to let you know that despite your allegations, I occasionally do have a "thought," and may not be as tired of thinking as you imply. I did notice in your commentary that you agreed with most of the values I set forth (and which I claim are representative of the Teaching Mission and the UB). It seemed that you skimmed over this rather quickly. Surely two people (or more) who hold so many common and lofty values cannot be too far apart in God's eyes. David, at times, you seem to have erroneously interpreted and embellished my words. You seem to have implied that I may be tired of thinking, that I have abandoned philosophy, that I have associated with a potentially evil cult, that I have avoided intellectual hard work, and have succumbed to a subjective closed loop (the one God indwells, btw). I remain unhesitatingly faithful to my convictions. We do seem to emphasize different aspects of the UB (thank God we have that privilege). I still see the brunt of the book to be about FAITH, personal EXPERIENCE, and LOVE, especially love. Again, I advocate seeking stillness as the open door to knowing the truth about the Teaching Mission.

 In conclusion, I appreciate your taking time to reply to my comments of 6/21. Your dedication to the Book, your willingness to dig philosophically and intellectually, and to state your views unequivocally is manifest in your posts. The Father has, imho, given you the gift of a great mind, and he must be charmed to see you using it so devotedly and so penetratingly. I also perceive that you are making an effort to be considerate of the feedback from this virtual community. I read between the lines that you are also showing restraint, yet not allowing yourself to be cowed by anyone's criticism. I can only respect you for these qualities, David, and wish you Godspeed.

  

Jul 1993

2 Jul 1993      David Kantor      On getting messages...

Subject: On getting messages...

 July 2, 1993

 Dennis, I simply cannot address your questions related to FOG. I am not withholding information; it is so complex that every sentence I write generates more questions. It would take a book, and given the higher value I place on many other things happening in my life, such is not likely. Part of the problem is that so many key players are still so checked out that critical information and perspectives are unavailable.

 Perhaps the primary factor here is that the entire event occurred within the minds of a community of people. I would suggest as a starting point, an attempt to understand your own personal involvement -- what led you to believe that these messages were true? By what means do you evaluate such claims by individuals today as to their validity? The correlation between the events precipitated by our "messages" with those occurring in the outer world at the same time could only be speculative at best; I am convinced that there is no understanding of this event possible from an examination of *any* specific information short of a serious psychiatric evaluation of the individuals involved and a study of the social manifestations of their particular pathology, and conducting such a study would indeed be a formidable undertaking.

 But let's talk about the messages and the phenomenon of receiving them. I have to chuckle when Bob Slagle challenges me to seek the presence of a "Teacher." I can contact and "channel" a "teacher" pretty much at will, and am capable of generating some pretty significant material. One of the repercussions of my experience at FOG was the opportunity to really experiment with this process. When I started perceiving significant levels of cognitive dissonance in our messages, I did a significant amount of experimenting with the process of receiving "messages."

 I discovered specific psychological processes which could be modified and which in turn would change the tone and content of subsequent "messages." I understand how to make this process of "channeling" happen, I can do it at will, and I view using this process in any way as an erroneous misadaptation of intellectual and spiritual potentials of the human intellect system. This process of "channeling" has significant psychological components which are not a part of normal worship and prayer life and these are the components which one must isolate and trace to their sources if one is to fully understand the process. This would require that you have a well-established active and consistent prayer and worship life, are able to "channel," and have the ability to quietly and analytically observe and evaluate these processes without destroying or inhibiting them -- a BIG order, but the only way I know to come to a better understanding of them.

 And perhaps most important of all, one must be brutally loyal to truth and sincerely willing to go wherever it leads. One must develop the habit of seeking truth to the point where it becomes an active process within the subconscious. This is serious stuff, my friend, but the task is there for the undertaking if you are truly interested.

 An important note here is that I have found significant time delays between a choice of will, and the physical restructuring of the neurological mind circuits necessary to implement that choice as an unconscious process. Note that this process is actual choice ("decisions, decisions, and more decisions") in the face of outer-world situations, not simply desire or idealized thinking. Such altering of the mortal mind circuits takes repeated and *consistent* conscious choices before the circuitry can be physically modified; these are organic biochemical functions which are thus being altered and they require time and repeated, consistent use of the same pattern to become hard-wired into the system to such a degree that they can provide significant backup support to consciousness. We're talking about growing actual physical pathways between cells here, and that simply takes time. The "balanced chemical function" clause in the "It is to the mind of perfect poise..." quote comes to mind here.

 While I have no empirical evidence for it, my experience would suggest that if similar decisions are made in the context of different states of brain chemical balance, the nervous system will attempt to establish neural pathways in actual physical locations which are determined by the balance of specific catalysts. This will make reinforcing and fostering the growth of specific neural pathways very difficult if that balance is constantly in flux due to such things as wide fluctuations in emotional response, physical illness, or the use of psychoactive drugs. It can thus be seen how very important it is to maintain a stable and consistent biochemical balance over a long period of time in order to efficiently implement the biological counterparts of our spiritual choices.

 I have found my psyche to be extremely creative; if I want to (or unconsciously need to) experience something like "teacher contact," my psyche will not disappoint me -- I will experience it. If I truly believe something is true, I will have confirming experiences. This is the closed loop to which I referred in my post to Bob Slagle. If I sincerely believe that I have the ability to channel a "teacher," a teacher will show up and there will be no lack of material to spit out and have someone transcribe. This is why I think it is immoral to tell people that they can have teachers if they just ask -- you are essentially setting them up through the power of suggestion to have self-confirming experiences which will further isolate them from full integration with reality. This is the essence of religious dogma and the reason why dogma is so ultimately destructive of the spiritual life. This is exactly what organized religion does, it tells you what you need to believe in order to make a particular experience possible; you sincerely accept the underlying belief and sure enough, the self-confirming experience occurs.

 As far as I can tell, this subjective nature of underlying beliefs includes our belief in the very existence of God. It seems to me that an individual should be *very careful* about the object of his/her faith, those ideas and feelings generated within consciousness to which we give the designation "reality" by means of this technique. Note in the UB discussion of faith, as important as faith is, it is only a temporary technique for simulating a relationship to cosmic reality until we get to the mansion worlds, where it becomes less and less of a factor as we develop the ability to relate directly to objective reality through encircuitment in the cosmic mind and adjuster fusion, finally disappearing altogether as we mature.

 Bob's "closed loop" (not picking on you Bob, but using your ideas as representative of the TM) is that he accepts by "faith" the idea that there is a teaching mission, and once fully committed, the psyche generates the confirmation of the original assumption. No checks, no balances, no external referents for verification (besides accounts by other individuals who are doing the same thing) -- it is simply a self-created, self-reinforcing closed loop. It is the master illusion of the spiritual life which has plagued truth seekers throughout the ages.

 This is precisely what happened to us at Clayton, and is what will more than likely continue to happen in the Urantia movement until we do our homework and assimilate the information from the book which has been specifically provided for us to prevent our falling into such restricting and simplistic conceptual frames of reference.

 Much has been said hereon lately about faith, belief and doubt. (Leo, thank you for your comments about faith and belief last week -- I thought they were right on, particularly your comment about "having faith *in*..."). Consider the scope of the problem: If I accept the idea that God exists, and that I can have a personal relationship with him, he will appear and I can indeed have a personal relationship with him. Is this real or an illusion? Good question. If I believe that I can have a "teacher" and one appears, is this real or an illusion? Good question -- *same* question. If I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, and if I accept him as my savior I will be free from the guilt of my sins, and I do so and I am freed from my burdens -- is this real or an illusion? Good question; *same* question. (Page 59 leads me to believe that one of the functions of epochal revelation is to confirm/disconfirm these religious assumptions.)

 Now consider how we are designed to function. We were designed to operate with a Planetary Prince's staff, later an Adamic regime, and then a sequence of bestowal sons. Consider:

  Page-587 "Think what it would mean on your world if somewhere in the Levant there were a world center of civilization, a great planetary university of culture, which had functioned uninterruptedly for 37,000 years. And again, pause to consider how the moral authority of even such an ancient center would be reinforced were there situated not far distant still another and older headquarters of celestial ministry whose traditions would exert a cumulative force of 500,000 years of integrated evolutionary influence. It is custom which eventually spreads the ideals of Eden to a whole world."

 We were designed to have epochal revelation provide us with a belief structure which, while a temporary construct of mortal consciousness, would approximate universe reality to a significant enough of a degree to provide for the progress of meanings and values which would enable the initialization of a soul. It seems to me that a primary task of the Prince's regime is to manage the development of what we might call the archetypes of the collective unconscious, and develop them in such a way that they bear a direct correspondence to significant objective cosmic realities. We have not had that ministry. We are forced to figure out for ourselves just what is an illusion and what is an accurate representation of reality.

 In conjunction with these ideas consider one of the primary issues in the Lucifer rebellion -- Lucifer maintained that the Universal Father does not exist, that his existence is a fabrication of the Creator Sons which is foisted upon the local universes as a means of giving them (the Creator Sons) political power over the creatures of their making. Check this out in the UB -- it's a very interesting issue. We're talking here about the reality of the conceptual foundations upon which the intellectual and spiritual life of a universe are founded.

 Remember also that we are considered "faith sons" until we reach the mansion worlds, become capable of being encircuited in the local universe manifestation of the cosmic mind, and fuse with our adjusters -- once again we recognize ourselves as living within biochemical virtual reality machines, flight simulators; the illusion of the perception of reality in mortal experience seems to be largely an artificially synthesized experience (even though derived values have survival potentials) confined to the neurological mind circuits of each individual mortal.

 So what's the criteria by which we evaluate these inner phenomena? They are self-reinforcing, so one must be extremely careful here, particularly when one gets into a group where there is an added dimension of social reinforcement, closely analogous to feedback in an electronic circuit. Now it gets even tougher to identify reality because one's associates are adding additional reinforcement and the subtleties of the illusion are not seen against the high signal level. This, to me, is why it is important to enter into silent communion on a frequent basis, not to listen for a message, but to allow the radiant presence of the Spirit of Truth to illuminate my thought processes and impart the message, "This is the way, walk in it." In my life, this working of the Spirit of Truth is a spiritual ministry to my entire being and has nothing to do with the impartation of factual knowledge.

 Even this can be misleading, and here we simply run into some of the problems involved in being such immature beings in the universe. In my experience at Clayton, I would often agonize in prayer about our situation and attempt to get some confirmation of what was happening in the message phenomenon; my only guidance was a strong sense that I should "Proceed", as in "continue on the course you have chosen." I took this for confirmation of the reality of the messages, and I now see this as a serious error. Any confirmation or discomfirmation of the "messages" by my spiritual benefactors would have been an interference in my free will choice making and would have deprived me of the need to learn how to evaluate these things for myself. I now see the meaning of this indication that I should "proceed" as "keep moving forward, it's the only way you're going to get through this experience; follow it through to the other side where I will meet you once again." Here I learned that even the "leadings" of our spiritual benefactors must be carefully evaluated in the best light we can provide.

 For me, entering into "the stillness" also means entering into communion with my spiritual benefactors as "pure" and free from all preconceptions as possible. If I enter into this state with particular expectations (conscious or unconscious) it has become quite obvious to me that those expectations shape the nature of the guidance received and can make it quite impossible for us to really receive the ministry our benefactors are attempting to provide for us.

 ***

 Perhaps I should accept Leo's label of being a literalist, although I don't think he's using it accurately. Be that as it may, I accept the UB as coming from a higher intelligence which has my best interests at heart (or whatever comparable organ he/she might have) and I'm willing to incorporate it as a paradigm for understanding reality. I would rather check it out as a *participant* than as an outside *observer* attempting an intellectual viewpoint of "objectivity." That way, the correlations I make with existing knowledge bear a relationship to my actual experiential encounter with the book -- I certainly get a lot more mileage out of studying how the cosmic mind works than trying to figure out what WSS had going on with EGW.

 Incidentally, Leo, I smell a rat somewhere in your expressed concerns about WSS and the UB. I think there's a lot more going on within you than you are fessin' up to in your posts. I have found you to be quite articulate, obviously very intelligent, and usually quite thorough in your arguments and clear in the positions you take as well as deeply sincere in your spiritual faith. But in your comments about WSS and the UB, the normal integrity with which you usually present your ideas just isn't there. You are a lot more prone to gross over-generalizations and shallow comparisons of ideas when discussing these issues -- what's going on here, Leo? It appears to me that you are using your discomfort at WSS's supposed presence in the UB as a coverup for something else -- your arguments take on a more defensive tone than a tone of sincere inquiry -- Que pasa, hermano?

 BTW, how can you accuse me of being a "literalist" when I attempt to call TM adherents to account for major discrepancies between what they are telling us about the TM, and the model of reality which is presented by the UB -- a text which they say is their "textbook?"

 And what is a more literalist use of the text, assimilating it's comprehensive concept of mind as a significant paradigm in which to do additional thinking or siezing on the usage of a single word such as "sordid" and using that one word as the basis for establishing an opinion about the entire text?

 I ain't buyin' it, Leo!

 On a more perverse note I thought you all might enjoy the following quote from page 171. In considering the trials of emerging into life on an Agondonter world (and it is late at night after a long day -- please bear with me), contemplate this quote, changing the word "sun" to "son":

 Page-171 "8. Burned-out Sons. Some of the dark islands of space are burned-out isolated sons, all available space-energy having been emitted. The organized units of matter approximate full condensation, virtual complete consolidation; and it requires ages upon ages for such enormous masses of highly condensed matter to be recharged in the circuits of space and thus to be prepared for new cycles of universe function following a collision or some equally revivifying cosmic happening."

 

 Ah, bring on the collisions....

2 Jul 1993      Thea Hardy       Re: On getting messages...

Subject: Re: On getting messages... In-Reply-To: [9307021841.AA17524@kira.CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 David K, nice to have you flying by! What an experience at the monastery!

 Interesting your comments on getting what you want, so to speak. One thing that has been pretty convincing for me in the TM experience is that all of my life my wishful thinking has not been followed with any such psychological manifestations, and I have never been able to believe things unless I could personally validate them in a variety of ways as true. My experience is pretty much just the opposite of what you express. I have had things where I believed and believed and nothing happened. Then, when I was far less certain, things began to happen, and I still questions them, yet move as best as possible in faith. I guess us human critters are not exactly identical in psychology, eh. Personality types? Anyway, just those few quick words, in haste, but wanting to dig in and look more closely and respond more carefully. Enjoy as much as possible your trip. How nice to see Francyl. I have not seen her in years and years and years!

 Dennis, does it appear that you are a believer in FOG but Switzerland to the TM? Now that is reallyinteresting!!! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

 Back ASAP,

4 Jul 1993      David Kantor      Responses week of 7/4/93

Subject: Responses week of 7/4/93

 Independence Day Lafayette, California

 Hello, Friends...

 Phil, I could not agree more with you in your assessment of Leo's position, and I particularly liked your "Infallibility Principle Syndrome" posting. (Leo, allow me a third person reference to your position for a moment...) Leo's arguments struck me as so specious that I was not even willing to expend the effort to respond. I assumed that perhaps he was trying to bait me into providing a defense of the UB which he, in his attempt to support his "omni- interaccomodative" views, would then throw back at me as a defense of the TM, which he immediately did with my comment about being a participant rather than an observer -- this "omni- interaccomodative" view seems to require the destruction of all relative evaluations of experience. So, based on this and the continuing volume of rhetoric with which he dissects what appears to me as absolute minutia, I can only conclude that his is a defensive tack and not a series of questions or objections which can be met with an acceptable response. No matter how rational and clearly presented the response, his discomfort is simply re- expressed in new ways. (Let us bear in mind here that a quest for *facts* is not the same as a quest for *Truth*.)

 Perhaps another key to understanding this curious situation is Leo's comment that "it has become more and more easy for me to answer these questions...by seeing what was in it for WSS..." -- Good one, Leo! Go for what is easy. Simply discount anything which is going to require some work, some change, some personal transformation, some psychological uncertainty and you are certain to arrive at the truth, right?

 The integrity and insight contained in Leo's criticisms are similar only to the critiques of the book which I have seen offered by Christian Fundamentalists -- seriously biased statements more revelatory of an underlying agenda than a quest for truth.

 So I have to look behind the arguments and assume that there are other factors involved. To me, the UB needs no defense from such seemingly contrived criticism as has been posted hereon. Apparently Leo does not want to accept the implications inherent in possessing an epochal revelation and he can do little more than generate a cloud of rhetorical obfuscation.

 I have encountered a number of individuals who seem to prefer relating to the UB in terms of its apocrapha rather than its content. The cognitive dissonance which I run into here is the general quality of Leo's intelligence and the seemingly contrived shallowness of his arguments against the book -- something here doesn't make sense to me and perhaps it is a limitation of the medium which makes me unable to appreciate his position as being a genuine personal dilemma confronted by a sincere seeker of truth.

 

 Leo, in terms of content, I get the impression that, while perhaps having read the UB, you have not made a serious study of its concepts. You seem to have enjoyed the sections which give voice to your own views, but I have yet to hear you present a view or a position which reflects anything more than a cursory perusal of the text. Likewise, your continuing criticisms of the book appear to me as reflections from the surface with no indication that you are even conscious of the conceptual depths that lie before you unexplored.

 You remind me of a starving man who, when given a box of food, instead of opening it and nourishing his famished body, chooses instead to examine the box which contains the food to see if it is properly constructed as a means of validating whether or not the food will be nourishing.

 Leo, I do not recall ever saying anything hereon or elsewhere which would lead someone to conclude that I was attempting to be "an impartial investigator of the human quest for meaning." I am definitely a UB believer; I have chosen to incorporate it's model of reality as a working paradigm and it has born significant fruit in many areas of my life over the years. Would you attempt to do physics while rejecting all known paradigms as valid contexts from within which to conduct your studies? I don't think so, and you can't do religion that way either. You must have a paradigm and you must truly incorporate it into your conceptual machinery if you are going to get anywhere. I personally think that having such a paradigm is far more important than *which* paradigm you happen to choose. So if the UB is too far out in space for you, choose something else; if it's concepts are too abstract for you, join the TM and get a teacher to help you. If it's statements about social and racial issues are too scary for you, become a Buddhist or an Animist or bail out completely and become an Athiest, but for goodness' sake, at least make a commitment to *something* so that you can begin the growth in meanings and values which only such a commitment makes possible.

 Otherwise you will be confined to a superficial level of observation; you will spend your life wandering around in the theater looking for a seat which meets all your requirements while your fellows are comfortably seated enjoying the performance. Your apparent lack of a conceptual foundation makes it difficult to even communicate on these issues with you -- where is Leo? Who is he? What ideas form the nucleus of his conceptual world? If I had an answer to these questions I could speak relative to your viewpoint and perhaps communicate more fully with you. As it is, I find a lot of high ideals revealed in your writing, but no solid ideas or concepts upon which a relationship which involves significant communication can be constructed.

 You presented my question to Dennis back to me (somewhat paraphrased) -- "What's leading you into this process?" "Where are you coming from?" Perhaps I can make more sense out of your position if I see this as the starting point of our discussion. If you have answered these questions for yourself, I would like to see them clearly articulated and might then not be so prone to projection and assumption when responding to you.

 I would rephrase the primary question to be "What is the purpose of my life?" "Why do I get up each morning and grapple with the vagaries of existence, the demanding clients, the endless stack of bills that need to be paid, the constant demand to learn more about meaningless technical esoterica, -- why do I decide to put up with all this rather than simply putting a .45 to my head and ending it all?"

 The answer is that I love life; I love people, I love my wife and my daughter and my friends, virtual and actual. I have experienced with my own being some pretty indescribable things; I have watched innocent children playing in filthy, dusty streets in a third world country where raw sewage runs into bomb craters, and homes (if you can call them that) are pockmarked with bullet holes. I have stood in a desert sunrise with tears streaming down my cheeks hearing a double sonic boom and watching the space shuttle descend from the sky to the desert floor in a graceful arc of light. I have watched the sun rise from the frigid wind-blown top of a 14,000 foot peak and I have watched flowers bloom. I have watched people die and I have watched people being born and I have fallen deeply in love with this process of life. It is something that I want to be a part of. I want to know how it works and I want to do everything and anything necessary to do it well, do be a responsible player in this incredible game. I want to find out who is responsible for this experience and give thanks to that person for making it possible for me to participate in such an adventure and to pledge to that person my desire for eternal participation. This is my deepest quest.

 So, how do I go about this? It is obvious to me that the process of life has been designed and is being managed by an intelligence which I can not even begin to imagine. Where's the information? Who knows what is going on? Who knows how to get in touch with this intelligence in order to signal one's desire for relationship? How do I do it? My first step was to try and see how other people had addressed the issue. This lead me to appreciate the need for a well-structured intellectual frame of reference in which to conduct the quest -- I could not find *any* indication that *anyone* had ever gotten very far in this quest without such a frame of reference.

 The next task becomes one of finding an appropriate frame of reference, and appropriate to me means one which provides the necessary structure but is open-ended enough to allow for more growth and development than I could possibly achieve during my lifetime. For me, the Urantia Book has proven more than adequate to this task. The more I learn about the cosmology it presents, the deeper the questions become. The more I attempt to incorporate it's ideals about interpersonal relationships into my life, the richer and deeper those relationships become. The more I learn about it's concepts of mind, soul, spirit and the nature of being, the deeper my experience of prayer and worship becomes, and I find my communion with that source of reality which I so deeply seek becoming a significant part of my inner life.

 I do not see how such an experience would be possible without a commitment to a specific cosmological view. When you focus your attention on WSS or EGW, you are focusing on psycho/social events in the lives of particular individuals and I would say to you that you will find far more about truth if you would focus on the same realities which led them to their unique experiences, rather than focusing on second hand interpretations of those experiences themselves. Look what's become of Christianity as a result of constant evaluation and discussion about who or what Jesus was. We would be far ahead of the game had such efforts been directed at understanding his life and teachings and implementing them into the daily lives of individuals. You seem to be advocating an examination of the UB rather than an incorporation of its ideas and precepts into our lives, avoiding the hard choices which come with commitment by becoming preoccupied with irrelevant surface issues.

 I would also take issue with your statement that "the evidence seems to be accumulating faster and faster for the human-origins hypothesis than it does for the divine-intervention hypothesis.."

 This is a category 3 argument if I ever heard one. What evidence? It might be accurate to say that Leo's view is leaning towards the human-origins hypothesis, but I don't see how you can objectify such an evaluation. If anything, I think that Matthew Block's work will ultimately reveal a revelational effort more beautiful and replete than anything we can fully appreciate at this point. Again, I get the sense that your primary interest is in the preservation of the intellectual comfort of your "omni- accomodational" viewpoint which eschews any meanings which might lead to the espousal of relative values.

 It is not my intention to be harsh here, Leo; I am honestly registering my response to the issues at hand and I am more than willing to 'fess up to having an emotional attachment to my experience with the UB. My experience with God and with the concepts presented in this book have infused my entire being, intellectual, emotional and spiritual. I respond to the revelation on all these levels; it has become a significant part of my being, much to the enrichment of my entire life. I make no apologies for this. It is somewhat akin to marriage for me; I make a specific choice to limit the nature of my relationships with all women except one. But far from being a limitation, such a choice and commitment opens up a domain of experiential reality which is far more beautiful and meaningful than would be possible to experience without such a commitment. I have always liked Jesus' statement that "my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 I care about you a great deal and have enjoyed our interactions hereon tremendously. You force me to consider significant questions more clearly than I might otherwise, and I deeply appreciate this. I trust this will continue regardless of our differing viewpoints or processes. One of the things I have come to appreciate in responding to you, to Byron and to Bob Slagle, Dennis and others, is the difference in viewpoint which we each have, a viewpoint which seems to be based on using different meanings and values to interpret what is often the same factual set of data. I can only evaluate and respond to your statements as best I can given the limitations of the medium. If I have grossly misinterpreted who you are or where you are coming from, I trust you will clarify or restate your true position.

 And if you simply wish to say that my arguments could be used to defend the TM, so be it; it is you who apparently lacks the ability or desire to evaluate the difference.

 **********************

 Bob Slagle (another indefatigable warrior of consciousness), I appreciate the time you took to respond to my post. I appear to have not read your original post in the manner you intended. I read a significant list of values which I thought you were listing as reasons why I should appreciate the TM and when I said they had nothing to do with the TM, you accused me of "straw man" tactics. While it is true that you did not specifically state that the two were related, it seemed clearly implied in your writing. Also, I have seen enough transcripts of T/R sessions and read enough in your posts as well as those of Byron and Michael Million to conclude that there is a strong anti-intellectual basis for much of the TM, repeated calls to not "intellectualize" but to "feel" -- no "straw man" here either, Bob.

 Let's consider your point about "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you." What does this mean to you? I often get the impression that many individuals envision the "Kingdom of Heaven" as some magical domain which can be entered into by mystical contemplation. I think a reading of Jesus' statements about it would instead reveal it as an emergent phenomenon repercussing from a network of interpersonal relationships. In the former interpretation it does indeed become a "closed loop." In the latter, it is open, not just because of the presence of God in it, but because it must perforce reach out constantly to build and foster relationships with other persons (not imaginary space people, but real flesh and blood humans.) I believe that this is one of the big reasons for Jesus' emphasis on unselfish service -- such activities take us out of a religious life of other-worldly contemplation and thrust us into a world in which there is suffering, great human need and much difficult work.

 Without meaning to appear as too much of a literalist, let me list some quotes which I think are key to understanding Jesus' teachings about the Kingdom (and this is a topic which deserves much more study than this overly-simplified review):

 

 Page-1859 At different times and in varying circumstances it appears that Jesus may have presented numerous concepts of the "kingdom" in his public teachings, but to his apostles he always taught the kingdom as embracing man's personal experience in relation to his fellows on earth and to the Father in heaven. Concerning the kingdom, his last word always was, "The kingdom is within you."

 This, to me, is the primary statement about the kingdom, it embraces "man's personal experience in relation to his fellows on earth and to the Father in heaven." It appears to me as a function of *relationship*. It is not something which can be possessed or even known in a factual manner. It is an *experience* and as with all spiritual realities, can only be apprehended in the actual process of experiencing it. It cannot be saved or even remembered. It, like truth, is a living spiritual reality which can be known only in the *process* of relating. It cannot be known through any intellectual or psychological process taking place only in the inner life of the individual. It requires active engagement with real personalities in the outer world to perceive and experience this Kingdom. Consider the following:

 Page-1861 By the time the Apostle John began to write the story of Jesus' life and teachings, the early Christians had experienced so much trouble with the kingdom-of-God idea as a breeder of persecution that they had largely abandoned the use of the term. John talks much about the "eternal life." Jesus often spoke of it as the "kingdom of life." He also frequently referred to "the kingdom of God within you." He once spoke of such an experience as "family fellowship with God the Father." Jesus sought to substitute many terms for the kingdom but always without success. Among others, he used: the family of God, the Father's will, the friends of God, the fellowship of believers, the brotherhood of man, the Father's fold, the children of God, the fellowship of the faithful, the Father's service, and the liberated sons of God.

 Consider Jesus' statement to Pilate,

 Page-1991 "...my kingdom is a spiritual dominion, even the brotherhood of men who, through faith and by love, have become the sons of God."

 

 And note this well-referenced quote related to the value of a network of human relationships;

 Page-1762 "And all this is ever true, for, where two or three believers are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them."

 I notice in reading the UB that whenever Jesus says "the kingdom of heaven is within you" he is talking to a *group*. I think that it is a gross perversion of his teaching about the kingdom to relate it to the subjective relationships which are possible to establish between components of one's consciousness rather than to the real world of our relationship with God and with our fellow humans.

 You state that the TM "does integrate beautifully into factual knowledge, philosophical coordination, The Urantia Book, and all other relevant dimensions." Just what do you mean by this? I have seen nothing which would indicate any rational link between the TM and factual knowledge and only speculative links between partially understood concepts in the UB. Philosophical coordination implies to me a set of ideas which establish a viable rational linkage between the experiences of the inner life and the observations of the outer world. Again, I have seen nothing like this in any of the TM literature and when I have asked for it I have been told that I am being too intellectual and that the TM can only be "experienced."

 You continually misquote the UB and derive your arguments from *implied* meanings rather than what is clearly stated. A good example is your quote from page 196. You say, "As the book says on 196:4 the ability to grasp and be aware of other personalities, human or higher is an innate ability of humankind."

 This is a misuse the passage, imo, which actually reads, "Unselfishness, aside from parental instinct, is not altogether natural; other persons are not naturally loved or socially served. It requires the enlightenment of reason, morality, and the urge of religion, God-knowingness, to generate an unselfish and altruistic social order. Man's own personality awareness, self-consciousness, is also directly dependent on this very fact of innate other- awareness, this innate ability to recognize and grasp the reality of other personality, ranging from the human to the divine."

 This quote appears as part of a discussion of morality and unselfish social consciousness, and does not appear to me as a justification for carrying on imaginary conversations with space people.

 Bob, you pose the question: "*IF* you became convinced that in truth, beautiful, ascendant personalities were making contact with humans and befriending us, would you want such contact yourself? Would you be interested in meeting and learning from fused mortals from Jerusem who were visiting Urantia and contacting humans at Michael's request?"

 To answer either "yes" or "no" to such a question would be to assume that such a thing was even within the realm of possibility. My take, based on my experience and my study of the UB, as well as a study of many related phenomenon, is that such an occurrance is simply not within the realm of possibility -- the universe simply does not operate in this way. Such a change in the way things were being run would have serious repercussions reaching beyond Supremacy into the Corps of the Finality and would represent a substantial change in some of the objectives of the present universe age and a substantial alteration in known administrative procedures, as well as the elimination of the agondonter status of anyone who was participating in the TM. I cannot believe that we live in a universe where such significant changes would suddenly occur so shortly after an epochal revelation had been delivered.

 In addition, I personally am challenged to the max in learning how to manage my relationships with *humans* -- my daughter, my wife, my business associates, my virtual friends -- I am a long ways from having these elementary levels mastered to the point where I can begin establishing relationships with such vastly different personalities as you describe. In my reading of the UB, such social interaction with celestial personalities does not begin to occur until the mansion world regime is well underway, and then in very controlled and managed circumstances. Your question itself suggests to me a view of reality constructed to meet deep personal needs for relationship and love rather than a grasp of significant universe meanings and values. You have the resources and the knowledge to check this out, but I see no indication that you have attempted to do so. Your feelings seem to be in sole control of your personal development.

 No, I can't buy it, Bob. What appears to me as an inability on your part to hear what I am saying about the FOG experience goes back to our telephone conversation two weeks after the collapse of FOG when you called to discuss what had happened -- I was by then beginning a serious examination of the psychological and social reasons why it had all happened and you called to tell me that you thought war had been averted at the last moment and tried your best to convince me of this. You have consistently, even though it has only been on a few occassions, held that our experience was based on actual real-world events. You expressed this view to me when we met at Yosemite with Dick and Cheryl and others some years back, and you (and others) have continued to hold this view. Rather than hearing what I have to say, you seem to take each bit of information and attempt to use it to validate your own hypothesis.

 While you may have personally experienced the FOG episode, where you differ from many of the rest of us is in the fact that you choose to see your own involvement as something other than a failure to accurately access your own experience. You appear to continually insist that there was a valid objective universe situation to which we were responding, a view held by virtually none of those who were directly involved in Clayton. Now you seem to be back taking the class over again.

 This is how it appears to me. I could be completely off base and maybe real space people are talking to you folks -- time will tell, but to me the probability of this really happening is so remote as to be impossible, and my reading of the UB and perception of the purposes and techniques of mortal evolution and planetary development would indicate that it is even less probable.

 Again, I appreciate your willingness to enter into dialog about this and to expose your views publicly. It is a testimony to your courage and to your sincerity as well. Given the quote about "religion always *acts*", I'd say we're both on the right track in some respects and sooner or later will hit it right.

 While I will respond as best I can to reactions to this post, I must begin to withdraw from so much participation hereon. I have a substantial amount of work to do over the next few weeks combined with significant travel, as well as preparation of a formal paper for a conference this fall and a journal article for Meredith Sprunger and some serious writing for a continuing education class. I'll participate as I can and will continue to enjoy your posts.

 I wonder if VanEl can fix communications satellites??????? (remembering Pattije's midway who fixes electrical appliances)

4 Jul 1993      Thea Hardy       A thing or two...

Subject: A thing or two... In-Reply-To: [9307042200.AA08548@kira.CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 July 4, 1993

 Dear David and Leo,

 I am addressing you both here, because in some bizarre way that may not make sense, your positions, or rather the way you hold them, are more similar in my mind than how I come to my own. When I think back, I see myself as having first been very much in your mindset, Leo, and then coming to aspects ofyours, David, without losing a good deal of Leo's, and now something different still, while retaining aspects of both. I do not mean to imply here that I have necessarily "gone beyond" at all, in fact you may want to consider me in my dotage/ senile loonity or some such, but from a standpoint of considering philosophical framing, I have bits and pieces of many approaches I experience on this virtual planet of Urantial.

 I seem to be unable, or perhaps too lazy, to couch my positions in the philosophical terms that some of you seem to present with ease and expertise. Nonetheless, I follow certain apsects of all your drifts. In my perhaps increasingly childlike or childish (depending on your point of view) mind, I feel sometimes like I am a kid in a candy store, and Leo has his nose pressed to one window and David has his pressed against another. I try in my mind to characterize the situation. It is like David is saying that a door into the shop is not possible, not for many, many years, or even thousands of years. Leo seems to be saying he is uncertain and never will be certain which door is _really_ the one into the candy store, and that it would be dangerous to fully try any one door, for fear of being mistaken and perhaps getting suckered into a pseudo candy store, or whatever it is. I am less clear on that position. Neither can see me in the candy store. And both turn away from the store bravely (and I mean that) facing their lives with love and integrity. Candy store is a bad metaphor for several reasons. Granted, there are goodies herein, but in truth they are presented freely for all with no actual walls. The wall we have between us and the goodies are of our own making. Secondly, to assume that the candy store of which I speak has nothing but candy goes against my experience. This time since I have been involved with the TM has been the most difficult and challenging, as well as inspiring, time of my life. I have never been presented with so many opportunities for growth: difficulties. And I have never been so able to benefit from them. But bowl of cherries, or la-la land, this ain't! One of my limitations, which some of you do not have, is my having to try to put my understanding in this simple form, rather than being able to explicate it more fully. You will certainly all find many faults with my metaphor, but hopefully, there will still be enough truth for me to have gotten across my own particular understanding.

 I love you guys. I have more understanding for where you are coming from than you might think. I do not want to see any kind of fundamentalist absolutism propounded in my neighborhood and I have spent plenty of time, several decades, believing firmly that things like the TM simply could not happen until years and years and years from now when mankind was finally beginning to get it more together. Bob Slagle may remember that I used to tease him for believing that the era of light and life might come in his lifetime. But to ask me to deny what is happening to me is to ask me to deny everything that I know and believe. I have spent years developing my character the best that I can and in as balanced a way as I can. My intellect is not the equal of some here, but I am not a flake. My emotional life has taken much work, but it is more balanced every day. I suffer from a chronic illness, but even that debility is improving, although slowly. Everything that I have sought and served of truth and beauty and goodness tells me in every part of my being that whatever I am witnessing here in this experience known as the TM (please note my distinction here) is a natural and powerful outgrowth of everything that I have come to believe from the UB. I do not say this to persuade others. I say it as an affirmation of my own faith, my own life.

 How do you know that I do not know?

 No one has yet been able to asnwer this question to my satisfaction. It will have to satisfy my own sense of the Spirit of Truth.

 Everything that I am learning daily, in this course of Applied UB, only enhances my personal relationships, my pursuits of both material and spiritual things, my growth in every direction. David, your testamony to what you love in this life was utterly beautiful; it brought tears. And it is exactly the same for me - those things of which you speak. Nothing of what I am doing takes away from any of that, but has only enhanced it. I have watched people who in some cases have had problems getting along for years come together in a short time to a point of understanding that is altogether lovely. What we are learning is not simplistic, despite the simple truths in the transcripts. The transcripts are a mere tip of the iceberg of what goes on. Much is on other levels and very much has to do with the personal relationships of people in the groups and with strangers on the street. I feel like I am learning first hand what it means to live things that before were only phrases - wonderful, hopeful phrases for a supposed future era - but nonetheless phrases. Now, daily, I begin to KNOW what they mean in my entire being. I knew about contact with the adjuster, and I pursued it, but I never knew that I could let in the love of God and how it would come through me begging to be expressed. Oh, I knew it now and then, but not with the regularity that I now experience it. Still not an even daily path, but a much clearer one. Things all work together to make an incredible sense that they simply did not make before. I think back to how it felt when I finally got the book and had read for enough years to really begin to get the overview. Of course, I said. I see! That makes so much more sense. Well, this is an enhancement of the same thing. It IS the same thing. If there are those of you who are offended by the idea that anything could come along to continue to further what the book has to say, so be it. I understand how this is a part and parcel of the revelation, this putting into practice what we have so diligently learned, putting it into practice more intensely, yet for the most part without fanaticism, putting it into practice more feelingly, with more grasp for the whole. I have never in my entire life experienced such an enhancement of concept grasp in relation to many, many UB concepts. That alone would be enough to keep one such as myself coming back for more. I have conversations with fellow travelers (no political association here) about creativity and its purposes, about the connections between diety and creature in the universe, about how the love of the Father manifests in our lives that bring me to tears and to ecstacy of understanding. And my friends can tell you it has certainly made me more pleasant to live with. It is hard for it to do otherwise when I really begin to grasp what the UB I have loved for so long MEANS.

 One quote of note that has special meaning for me lately: from page 381 about the Universe Mother Spirit:

 "If you are a willing learner, if you want to attain spirit levels and reach divine heights, if you sincerely desire to reach the eternal goal, then the divine Spirit will gently and lovingly lead you along the pathway of sonship and spiritual progress. Every step you take must be one of willingness, intelligent and cheerful co-operation. The domination of the Spirit is never tainted with coercion nor compromised by compulsion. And when such a life of spirit guidance is freely and intelligently accepted, there gradually develops within the human mind a positive consciousness of divine contact and assurance of spirit communion; sooner or later "the Spirit bears witness with your spirit (the Adjuster) that you are a child of God"

 There is no mention herein of the TM. That is because the TM is not in any way necessary to accomplish the large part of what I am experiencing. What the TM has done for me is to focus and encourage and inspire and bring me together with others wanting to do the same in a way that no study group in my time with the book has ever done. I do not fully understand the differences, but I affirm that they are there. Any of you can do this without the TM, or teachers or ideas of contact with teachers. You can do all through your contact with the Father inside, and with sharing together about the experience as it unfolds. That is what I would like to see here: a sharing together of what this process of living the Father's will is. It is in that attempt and that sharing that the blessings ascribed to the TM take place. To my mind, that is how it works. We can do much of it here, in this place, without any reference to the TM. The point is, will we do it!? What the TM does for me is that I am with people that ARE doing it. I would love to do it here, too, sans TM.

 There is nothing to chide any of you for in your views. All come to truth in their own ways, in their own times, with their own paths (usually convoluted, for we are humans) and what works for one in the specific sense does not necessarily work for another. But we share, I think, the belief in the watchcare of a heavenly parent who loves us and whose love we can accept and pass on to each other, a love that makes us brothers and sisters together. This is all we need to share, IMHO.

 I enjoy the differences; they strengthen us. Let us also explore our similarities, for the sake of balance. We need both our diversity and our unity in these discussions in order for them to be whole.

 And I have just shot my byte-count for July...

 Leo and David, my apologies for using your perceived positions (which I have presented here very simplistically) for exemplary material. I could have used others, but your presentations hereon were more recent.

 Thanks to you both, and to all the rest of you who make this virtual family under God.

5 Jul 1993      leo elliott            enjoying the show

Subject: enjoying the show

 July 5, 1993

 Thanks again, David Kantor, for another fine round of smoke and fireworks. Thanks also for the advice on "how to do religion;" I will keep it securely stored in my "how to do religion" file, for the next time I want to join one, or judge or evaluate one -- I'm sure you've whetted the appetites of your associates hereon for the life-saving truths of epochal revelation.

 If we can find no agreement about "the facts," it stands to my reason anyway that there is little likelihood of finding any agreement as regards "ideas" or "relations." That most of my efforts hereon at soliciting alternative interpretations of "the facts" of what you dismiss as "psycho-social trivia" have been met with the type of disdain and doctrinaire dismissal you display in your last post convinces me that whatever the "Urantia movement" may turn up as it pursues this cult of meaningful symbolism, it is already well on its way to becoming dogmatic, exclusionary, and intellectually orthodox, holier-than-thou. I see little value in future discussion with a literalist such as yourself who just a few months ago was telling me that _no_ religious movement could be understood apart from looking at its psycho-social, cultural, underpinnings, and yet who simply blasts away with accusations of ideational speciousness when the psycho-social underpinnings of his own movement come under investigation. It all depends on whose ox is being gored, no? (And where did I get that crazy idea about no universe phenomenon being understandable apart from an understanding of its origin, nature, and destiny? I must have missed the part about "applies to all phenomena except self-described epochal revelation.")

 If you really want to know what went wrong with Christianity David, I suggest you simply review your last post -- it becomes a little difficult to draw much sustenance from the visionary creme-filling, sandwiched as it is between bitter denunciations of my efforts at investigating psycho-social trivia, and others efforts at, among other things, overcoming an intellectual top-heaviness of our culture.

 Let me state it one final time, just for the record: it has never been my intention to _defend_, intellectually or otherwise, from within the UB-frame or out, whatever it is that the TM may "really" be. Rather, simply to suggest that there may be more "possibility" (a difficult concept, I'm sure, for a literalist such as yourself to deal with, who prefers to have everybody in their seat, so the show can continue), in an approach which tries to accomodate differences of viewpoint and interpretation, rather than judge them as "spiritual masturbation," ideationally vacuous, or worse. About the only accusation I haven't seen fly across here (yet) is that of being in league with the devil, but I'm sure if you hang out long enough with the likes of Strang and Moyer, some of their good habits will rub off.

 So let the show roll on. I won't excuse myself herefrom by listing all the important work I've got to do, writing and preparing journal articles and fixing satellites, for I've considered the "work" I've been engaged in hereon to be rather a major focus of the last year of my life. Odd how it's turned out, but so it goes. As Bucaroo Banzai weighed in so heavily, "No matter where you go, there you are."

 I won't spoil the show any further with suggestions anyone may want to take a look in the projection booth, or read the labels on the boxes of candy or popcorn they may be enjoying. Conceptual health-food it is, so I'll be somewhere outside, enjoying some fresh air, taking the easy path, once again, out the side-exit. It's been a pleasure, this last year, sharing the life and times of the logondonters, but there seem to be some new ushers in the ballpark who are very intent on outlawing fan misbehavior. I wish them well, and I hope you all find the meaning you seek, in whatever field of dreams you choose to play.

 Adios amigos,

 Leo (banned by the commissioners for foul play) Elliott

5 Jul 1993      David Kantor      Quick one to Leo and Michael M

Subject: Quick one to Leo and Michael M

 Leo;

 I can't believe that you're just going to scoot out the side exit as you indicate -- if you truly believe in your viewpoint I hope you will stay here and participate and make an effort to communicate its validity.

 There's nothing wrong with being the only one who holds a particular view and if you feel strongly about it, get back out here and make a better case for it -- after all, you come from a heritage where individuals were willing to be fed to lions for the sake of their beliefs.

 If you simply don't want to discuss it any further, say so and I'll address my responses to issues raised by others, but don't just walk off the field -- even though I may disagree with you, I would greatly appreciate your continued presence. We're very different individuals, Leo; I find your posts re WSS to be just as offensive as you appear to have found mine, but that is no excuse for abandoning the effort when your views are challenged.

 As I said in my last post, my presence hereon is likely to be extremely limited over the next couple of months anyway so don't check out just because you don't like my views -- you've got a constituency hereon who appears to enjoy your presence and it would probably be better for me to simply censor my views than to have you vacate your virtual chair.

5 Jul 1993      Dennis Shields      The secret meaning of Aloha

Subject: The secret meaning of Aloha

 Aloha logonites

 A few comments re recent postings.

 David Kantor prior to reading your forth of July post I wrote the start to the following and although I am rather more convinced of your sincerity subsequent to reading your reply to Leo and Bob I still feel strongly enough about the questions I have asked of you and Sara that I must continue with the following:

 David I ain't buying it either In my case however it is your *straw man* approach to answering questions about WWIII and your individual participation.

 Your answer:

 * It would take a book, and given the higher value I place on many other things happening in my life, such is not likely. Part of the problem is that so many key players are still so checked out that critical information and perspectives are unavailable.*

 This answer is a non answer and given the nature of the beast it just don't cut it.

 You have consistently been in the top five in terms of byte count. you can spend the time on the topics that you wish to champion yet when specific questions are asked of you, you fall back on some rather tired excuses, I did not query as to an in depth psychological evaluation of the participants. I asked about your and Sara's recollection of events regarding a time line of attitudes and happenings from 1980 to 1985 regarding FOG. I would not expect you to be able to answer for others and their unique perspectives rather I asked for your personal recollections of events. I am rather disappointed that you would not be more forth coming as you have stated in earlier post that the outcome of this event caused harm to others.

 You have stated *I can contact and "channel" a "teacher" pretty much at will, and am capable of generating some pretty significant material. One of the repercussions of my experience at FOG was the opportunity to really experiment with this process. When I started perceiving significant levels of cognitive dissonance in our messages, I did a significant amount of experimenting with the process of receiving "messages."

 Which leads me to wonder if you had a cavalier approach to the ramifications of your messages were you dabbling and it just got out of hand?

 *I discovered specific psychological processes which could be modified and which in turn would change the tone and content of subsequent "messages." I understand how to make this process of "channeling" happen, I can do it at will, and I view using this process in any way as an erroneous misadaptation of intellectual and spiritual potentials of the human intellect system. This process of "channeling" has significant psychological components which are not a part of normal worship and prayer life and these are the components which one must isolate and trace to their sources if one is to fully understand the process.*

 I can only view the above as a glittering generality all filler with no meat. Where's the beef I say!!

 Having been taught many tricks of the trade in the sales game one of the first techniques learned is if a client asks a question which has as its obvious end result a *no sale* the salesman must ask a question in retort designed to redefine the discussion in terms more favorable to the conclusion being sought by the salesperson. It is in this light that I recognize the following: *I would suggest as a starting point, an attempt to understand your own personal involvement -- what led you to believe that these messages were true? By what means do you evaluate such claims by individuals today as to their validity?

 You some what redefine this question in your July 4th post but I will give a simple straightforward answer to the above question. What led me to take the messages of 1983 seriously enough to spend more money than I could immediately afford on food, medical supplies, ammo for my hunting tools (and a $400 telephone bill calling around the country to find out how serious were the messages of 83) the impetus to take the above actions was first the signs of the times next was the fact of Verns credibility at that time thirdly that independently of Vern two other messages were delivered to other Urantia readers in distant parts of the Globe who did not know each other yet gave the same message. After the passage of time it now comes to my understanding that factually we were at the brink of Armageddon at just that time, 1983. Regarding the messages of 1985 however I only recently recall that some mention was made to me that the FOG folks were again predicting WWIII however in 1985 the signs of the times were so out of sync that I did not take the messages seriously at all. So much so that I at this time have only the vaguest of memories that such 1985 predictions were made at all.

 *By what means do you evaluate such claims by individuals today as to their validity?*

 I evaluate such claims today by a simple test. The test of time, hence in part my claim of Switzerland status. In reply to Theas Question of me as accepting FOG messages but not the TM an thus the question of some compromise of my neutral position I have already replied *FOG: I took a 10 year wait and see approach (other than at the time I filled my pantry) after ten years I find that there is evidence to support the FOG event as having a basis in fact. Hang on for ten years and see what I say about the TM*

 Now I have given you a honest answer I would like the same from you David and Sara (I am not suggesting that any answer that you have given or may give is not honest). From your recollections in as non rhetoric a fashion as you can muster please answer the obvious questions about the course of events. Tell us the story from a first person point of view, what did happen who said what or as Jack Webb used to say *Just the facts* no protracted psychological differentiation of the associated persons just simply tell what happened as best you can.

 the proverb which I nearly titled this post goes *to suspect a friend is worse than to be deceived by him.* Please help me out here David, let me off the horns of this dilemma if you continue to what I perceive as dodge the issue I will begin to suspect that you are hiding something and given the forgoing rule of thumb I don't want to suspect you of anything.

 The reason I chose the title for this post is that Aloha is more important than suspicion. In fact Ive chosen this post to let you all in on a secret about the meaning of the word Aloha its so secret that even the Hawaiians don't know it, they may practice it but they don't know it by this definition. Aloha in this sense means * the Jesus in me Loves the Jesus in you* ssssh don't tell no one now just try to live it

5 Jul 1993      Sara L. Blackstock    Response to Dennis S.

Subject: Response to Dennis S.

 July 5, 1993

 

 Dear Dennis:

 Here's some *bare* facts from a sheet of notes my husband Bob jotted down at about the time Vern announced to the whole group of us Foggers, on Weds 10/12/83, that the midwayers told Vern to, "Prepare for the third world war."

 Vern's contacts (those he shared with Foggers generally):

 12/16/82 Vern was shown (by the real estate agent helping him find a new location for FOG headquarters) the Clayton property; Vern got the message, "This is it." During the next several months the property was purchased, and the bulk of furniture, equipment, etc. were moved from the old building in Berkeley to the new location, which Vern named the "Spiritual Renaissance Institute."

 1/7/83 Vern got a message, "No risks," drive carefully, avoid hazardous activities, etc. This message was meant for all of the Foggers.

 1/21/93 He got, "Don't publicize the Book."

 10/6/83 (on or about 10/6/83) He got: Don't split the Book for publishing; Prepare for third WW; Find fall out shelters or build them; Determine escape routes; The "Institute" is in the top 10 percent functionally and defensively secure; 533 Diversey, Chicago, is in the bottom 10 percent; Be not anxious nor afraid. We love you.

 10/11/83 He got midwayer responses to some questions posed by Foundation and Brotherhood "key people" (who were called and advised by Vern re the 3rd WW message) and they asked Vern to ask the midwayers: Is this 3rd WW inevitable? Yes, unless it is decided to send an Emergency Son on Emergency Mission; Is nuclear holocaust inevitable? No; Act as if this is the last message; Make affirmative preparations.

 

 For over a year from October 1983 preparations were made for the war; increasingly Foggers trickled away, joining the growing numbers in the rest of the U movement who did not believe in the validity of Vern's messages; the number of Foggers in the organization when the Clayton property was acquired was around 40, and there were probably fewer than half that by the begining of 1985.

 

 I started receiving messages on 1/2/85, and they continued almost daily through 3/25/85, the day WWIII was to start. These messages basically said that Vern's were valid, continue with preparations for WWIII, and finally gave us that date, 3/25/85.

 Well, Dennis, I know you have done considerable research regarding international events of the early 80's which might have a connection with FOG events during the same period, and I felt I might try to meet your requests for information with the above. Maybe someday soon one of the Foggers will write a book about those times.

 

6 Jul 1993      Karen Day       Glad to be on board

Subject: Glad to be on board

 Subject: Time:4:38 PM OFFICE MEMO Glad to be on board Date:7/6/93 7/6/93 Thanks for the warm welcomes! I'll also extend my welcome to Minnie-Rose.

 Guess I'll throw my 2 cents worth in on the discussion about the UB and its accuracy, validity, origins, etc., and that of the TM as well. I enjoyed Thea's post about the candy store and other personal reflections. As I told Thea, I enjoyed the quote about the Universe Mother Spirit-- we are all heading for the same goal and how we get there may differ, but its that forward movement that's important. We each hold a different set of experiences (otherwise there would be no purpose to the evolving Supreme!). We are each at different stages of development, learning, and each will play roles of teacher and student simultaneously throughout our careers.

 One point in Thea's post that I would like to reiterate in particular is in reference to the Spirit of Truth. I believe that we all each have the Spirit of Truth within us, and that is how we discern truth. No amount of factual information can ever prove to us what is truth and what is not. So I try to rely on this ability within. Of course, I happened to read about the Spirit of Truth in the UB, so I guess it took a leap of faith to accept this first axiom. But then, it takes faith to accept Deity at all. All I can say is that I have come to terms with my own acceptance of the UB as containing truth as well as the TM transmissions containing truth. My opinion is that the truth contained in the UB is highly accurate. It's also my opinion that the TM transmissions are not always so accurate, and I contribute this to the skill level of the transmitters. It's a very different process than how the UB was received. And the UB and the TM have very different purposes. The UB was given to us to be with us for a long time. It's a major revelatory work. The TM transmissions are not so much important for their informational content (although there are some excellent, valuable messages coming through) as for the affect the TM process as a whole is having upon each of those involved. It is a process that effects religious living, that stimulates and encourages daily communication with Father-- putting the truths as stated in the UB into practice. It's just another technique to get that Kingdom garden to grow. And I want to also add that, for me, reading the UB is also a powerful experience, a connection with Deity-- just a different media, a different tool. And each tool enhances the other.

 Well, those are my thoughts for now. I'll pause before I start competing with the big byters!

 

7 Jul 1993      David Kantor      Quick responses to Thea and De

Subject: Quick responses to Thea and Dennis

 July 7, 1993 On the run in Lafayette

 Dennis;

 I will attempt once again to give you information that you are looking for;

 When the FOG scene collapsed, I destroyed all my notes and transcripts; I have zilch in the way of records. Sara and Bob have somewhat of a time-line which I think they may post by the time I get this posted.

 > a cavalier > approach to the ramifications of your messages > were you dabbling and it just got out of hand?

 You've got to be kidding. I don't dabble, I wallow in this stuff! I have always taken these things very seriously. Careful observation of one's involvement, in my mind, is not being "cavalier." In fact, I would say that to get involved in such matters and *not* be carefully observant would be cavalier and irresponsible.

 Sorry you view my comments as containing no beef. It's about the best I can offer. Much of this is experiential -- all I can say is that I have found a distinct difference between channeling, prayer and worship. I have studied this difference within my own consciousness and feel I have a good working understanding of it, but truly lack the word symbols to communicate it. I encourage you to engage in a careful, critical, long-term study of your own processes if doing so is not a part of your normal inner discipline; it may be the only way to understand the phenomena. I don't know you very well and I don't know what systems or methods you may be familiar with for managing or ordering your consciousness. If I did, it might be easier to communicate these concepts.

 I would only say that I have found it helpful to arrange the variety of psychic, mystical and spiritual experiences available to consciousness into an hierarchal order. By doing so, some of them cancel each other out in terms of viable modes of consciousness. Others come into sharper value-focus as a result. For example, I place worship at the top, followed by prayer. By establishing a consistent prayer and worship life which extends over a long enough period of time to allow for changes in emotional state, changes in life circumstances and changes with normal aging and (hopefully) maturing processes, one develops a spiritual reference point against which other phenomena can be evaluated. Perhaps I'm getting off the track of your question. I'm not really trying to hide anything here; you simply need to be more specific in your questions so that I can actually address them.

 Let me add another note here; I got from your last post that you were under the impression that there were two sets of WWIII warnings from FOG. Such was not the case. It was one continuous time of preparation from the first "war message" to the last. My messages towards the end got more and more specific down to times, targets and warhead yields. It was quite fantastic. There were reams of this stuff.

 I had begun to get very suspicious of these "messages" some weeks before but when I discussed it with Vern, he assured me that I had "a very experienced thought adjuster" and would be neglecting my duty as a reservist if I abandoned the effort at this point. I skeptically accepted his argument and continued the process. My embarrassment is that I allowed him to so fully define reality for me and was unable to follow my own intuition on it. It was delusional in the grandest sense.

 My last message came the evening before the war was supposed to start and was still providing full confirmation and additional specific details. The next day when I entered into that "stillness" I began to get messages about the date being changed to later in the week, targets being changed, a mistake in estimating the actual time, all sorts of really silly excuses, and I knew it was all bulls***. Nothing could have been clearer to me at that point than the fact that we had made it all up ourselves. Had the messages truly been from a celestial source, I can't imagine them not offering a better explanation when people had been willing to sacrifice their lives and everything they had.

 I was able to allow myself to continue getting these "messages" and over time to observe how the process was occurring. I have never lost the ability to do this, but see it simply as one of the many psychic/mystical aberrations of consciousness which can be developed and fostered if so desired. Indeed, many religious systems have arisen over the centuries as a result of these very processes. My present position is that these phenomena are not really a part of an integrated and healthy spiritual and psychological life and can actually be harmful in that they create an illusion of spiritual contact. The UB is very important in this respect because it gives us the information we need to know about which aspects of our experience should be fostered and developed, and which ones are simply byproducts of being an electrochemical organism. I've probably wandered again from the central point of your question; this stuff is really subjective, Dennis -- I really don't have much more to say about it.

 Thea; I'm not sure about the candy store metaphor -- it implies something external, objective, which can be entered and exited perhaps with a handful (or mindful) of goodies. But I think I understand what your meaning is. It's more than just a candy store; to me it is not a matter of simply going somewhere as I am and having an experience. The process seems to be more one of transforming myself so that I can more fully experience the object of my desire. And it seems to be a reciprocating process of self-transformation which leads to an experiential encounter which stimulates further self-transformation. I am probably just as metaphysically hedonistic as you are and I doubt that any of us can top Bob Slagle for sheer God intoxication. No, I'm going for the goodies and I believe that God wants us to go for the goodies -- I believe that he wants us to have the richest, fullest life possible and the question really becomes quite hedonistic -- how do we get the best possible experience for the longest possible time with the least possibility of retrograde motion or wasted time?

 My experience leads me to believe that I can't storm the gates of heaven by an act of will. To *really* get the goodies, I have to get into an on-going process of transformation and experience, transformation and experience. When I truly experience God-consciousness, I simultaneously become aware of specific factors in my inner life which are limiting the quality of the experience. If I take this seriously, I can then address these limitations, and a subsequent encounter will have more depth. But the process never ends. It is a process of life-long development.

 If you are truly feeling nourished by your involvement with the TM, I still say, "Go for it!" You seem to really be on top of your experience and finding richness in it and you eloquently state your views. My view is different and I have to be loyal to it. I think there is far, far more which is readily available if we just make an effort to read the clues provided in the book and if we are willing to work a little. Perhaps I could fall back on your metaphor and say that my position is that you can go into the store, but realize that what you see through the window is simply a display; there is really a gigantic warehouse full of candy just beyond what you see in the display case and you better be sure you take a truck with you in order to carry it all. (bad metaphor, but what the heck!) On the other hand, if you're starving to death and just need a little sugar to jump-start your nervous system maybe it's best to smash the window and grab a handful quickly, but even then, you'll have to take time to repair the window and reorient yourself once you get rejuvenated. (terrible metaphor!!!)

 These are personal views to be sure, but it's all we have, and I am convinced that regardless of our starting points, if we give highest loyalty to truth, we will progress ever closer to the Father's way. I certainly don't have any final answers, but I do believe that we won't get anywhere if we're not in motion -- I feel far better about adjusting my course while sailing along than waiting on shore until I have full assurance of the course to be taken. Your quote from page 381 says it all.

7 Jul 1993      Thea Hardy       David - On Music and Metaphor

Subject: David - On Music and Metaphor In-Reply-To: [9307080210.AA24417@kira.CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Yeah, my candy store metaphor was pretty pathetic; simplistic, really. I fully agree with you about doing it by acts of will. Useless, in my experience. God knows, truly, that I tried that route long enough! I participate in the transformation model, too, and it is a universe-life-long journey, I think! At least in some aspects. Worship is definitely first, prayer definitely second. In terms of values, I think the next is reality-oriented relationships w. friends and family because that is a big part of my spiritual life - the loving to and from others. Then further on down is reading UB and then transcripts. My contact with the teachers falls in the friendship area as an experience but only the reading area as far as the details of contact. Worship is...well, yeah, if that is what is in the candystore, I am going in with a truck (I can live with imperfect metaphors; I have to; I use them!!! :) I think for me the relationship with the TM is that I managed to rededicate myself with greater depth to what I already knew with the UB and to find others willing to participate to greater depths than I had heretofore experienced. So the depth of my worship and prayer, although not directly from the TM in any way, have been enhanced by my experience with it. But then I am not getting the kind of messages that you got. I have to be honest; if I do, that will be the end of the TM for me. Immediately if not sooner. I have said so before and I continue to say so. I think that your reactions to what I have heard you describe in your most recent message to which I am responding make perfect sense. I think that the nature of the messages as you describe them was such that you made an intelligent choice. The TM is perhaps both trickier and easier. I, too, can generate what I call "false" messages and have taken note of this with some care. They do reveal themselves, however, in a variety of ways. I will have to ponder just what it is that makes that clear. I also hear messages sometimes that I find "unreliable". It is interesting - it is not just the content, because sometimes I don't buy the content of a message in some details, but find the message "authentic" anyway. Other times, I sense an inauthenticity even though the content seems innocuous. Bizarre, eh. Don't feel obligated to continue this particular discussion with me. I am comfortable with where I come from (though this did stimulate an interesting and useful train of thought for me). I would enjoy talking about our spiritual lives as metaphors - being willing to use even bad ones - as ways to get at things that are often difficult of expression in more conventional or logical terms.

 In fact, I would like to see an addition to Fred's Exercise, or an expansion, different twist, etc... If "war" stories don't come to mind, how about expressing a few metaphors for how you each see your spiritual life, or aspects of it that you understand or maybe are exploring? That would be a lot of fun, too, especially if we stuck to discussing the metaphoric aspect which could eliminate a certain personal element of criticism when we do not agree. Well, it was a thought!

8 Jul 1993      Thea Hardy       Virtually real

Subject: Virtually real In-Reply-To: [9307082227.AA12544@kira.CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 David K., I was not offended by your God intoxication metaphor, though in thinking about it, I think some people get an intoxication with religion that is perhaps not as much about spirituality as they may think. I read you to mean the wonderful feeling that one has when worship really functions and it just feels better than anything else! Perhaps this is the one addiction that is okay? I have often thought that the energy that fuels the way that people sometimes seek relationships with other people, especially expecting rather perfect responses, is more about God hunger than human love hunger and it just gets misplaced!

 I guess on a planet in the grip of a certain degree of materialistic thinking, it is no wonder we seek the God experience in other people. Good reason to lessen expectations of others and turn them to the Father where they can always be met, to the degree of our human ability to contact!

 More later,

 

14 Jul 1993     Byron Belitsos      Bob's "eruption" theory

Subject: Bob's "eruption" theory

 Dear friends,

 This letter is addressed to our brother Bob Blackstock, and concerns his paper, "A Psychological View of the TM."

 Dear Bob,

 This is a well-written and intriguing piece, with a classical Jungian emphasis applied in a novel way. Here are a few thoughts upon reading it.

 1. Have you considered analyzing any channeled texts so you can demonstrate evidence for your conclusions? For example, it would be most interesting to see the results of an archetypal analysis of any given channeled TM text. Do you think it possible to identify the deep collective unconscious material and distinguish it from the other kinds of unconscious and conscious material that you describe in your paper? Would you be willing to publish such an analysis herein?

 2. You tried to explain in your paper how someone not familiar with the UB is able to channel UB-related material. Again, I suggest you analyze a text from such a person and show the evidences of archetypal material erupting and, link this textual material with our concept of the Urantia movement's "limited collective unconscious", as you call it.

 3. Also, if you can, please cite the references in James and Jung and any others of mass eruptions of unconscious material resulting in individuals in different locations independently producing related channeled material.

 It has been requested by many that Sara's transcripts be brought into public view. I too would urge you to do so. Perhaps in doing so you could apply the same archetypal analysis to her material that you have explained in your theory of archetypal "eruptions".

 Bob, I am sympathetic with your experience of having a "significant other" channel from purported celestial beings. My girlfriend has produced rich transcripts on a weekly basis since January, and unlike Sara's, these contain good or benign news, (with the exception of discussions of repercussions of the Lucifer rebellion). How about an exchange of transcripts? Could you discuss this will Sara?

 See you in Montreal if I don't hear from you before.

14 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       God's on our side

Subject: God's on our side In-Reply-To: [9307150159.AB22473@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 I know whose side God is on. He is on all sides. Our side for these purposes is humankind. But I might play the game anyway, just for fun...

 I could do a nice soundtrack for us to march to...

 Just finished reading The Birth of a Revelation by Mark Kulieke for the first time. I was astonished. This fits so many parts of my experience in the TM that it was really spooky. In fact, I had a bizarre faith experience of mutual confirmation of the UB and TM all wrapped up together, and a sense of continuity of planetary happenings for over a hundred years and a vision into the future as well. It all made sense to me. Some of the specifics about the nature of the contacts of the celestials, their humor and use of slang (they think slang is really fun) and their personal natures...it is just exactly my experience. I think I have now graduated from the TM as metaphor stage to the TM as exactly what it says it is. I had a time when that happened in terms of the UB, too. So I felt obliged to inform this virtual community of my new position. I doubt that it will affect any of your radically! :>) But it is very interesting to me. My concept grasp is growing by leaps and bounds and is one of the most fascinating by products of my recent experiences. I have become fascinated by the concept of pattern/structure and how it correlates with the creativity of personality. When I read that paper, I had an internal vision of the "pattern" of the revelation, including the TM. Among other things, I believe that one role of the TM is to form more study groups which are certainly needed, and to provide the kind of camaraderie that the Forum et al had and which is important in apostolic work. I am sure that some study groups have managed that, but there are many that have not. I think the TM will help. We are all working together with dedication to the Fifth Epochal Revelation and I still regret that there are those who see us as separate/different/deceived. I could see us all, pulling together for what we most treasure - the religion of Jesus. I hope we will learn to do so better and better in the times ahead.

 My love to you all,

15 Jul 1993     Philip Calabrese      On channeling

Subject: On channeling

 ------- Dear Logondonters,

 Since David Kantor is occupied with economic necessities, I thought it would be useful to ask again about the lack of any messages after the FOG "Prepare for WWIII disillusionment" saying in effect that "WWIII was averted because ...." Rather, assuming that the messages were real for a moment, Vern Grimsley and the other FOGers were left hanging in embarrassment and remain so today. It is hard to believe that higher life would do that, but I know that those who believe in their channeling are usually not much troubled by this. I even know of one person who believes that the Midwayers, for some reason, deliberately made statements that they knew would not come true, knowing that this would result in the channeler being discredited before those who were told of a (famous human) appearance that did not occur.

 There have been some more recent TM announcements of scheduled appearances by higher personalities that have not taken place. I have seen no subsequent messages that have adequately and honestly explained what happened.

 In one case though - that of Ham (channeled by Rebecca of Woods Cross) announcing a subsequent appearance by Gabriel, which did not occur - Ham took complete responsibility for the no-show. When I asked about this no-show at the Los Angeles session of the Woods Cross group conducted by Ham (Rebecca et al) I was told that Ham completely understood the answer but that it was not fully understandable by human logic or understanding. This did not satisfy me because my question seemed simple enough: 'Did Gabriel just not show up or did Ham fail to confirm the visit or was this coming from Rebecca's own deep mind.' Had the answer been "In this instance from Rebecca's own deep mind", that would have naturally lead to a question of how to tell the difference when the message is not so easily testable? As we left the meeting room, someone changed the sign pointing to the meeting room from "HAM =>" to "Baloney =>". That episode did nothing for the TM's credibility in my opinion, to put it mildly.

 It seems conceivable to me that the general claims of the TM could be true, but I need qualifiers. If there really is a mandate from on high (even from Jesus-Michael himself) for various superhuman teachers to make imperfect contact with willing humans via a channeling process, there needs to be (for skeptical, ambiguity-intolerant people like me) some way to tell the wheat from the chaff before I hear some message that makes claims or gives directions or makes suggestions that impact me in other-than-spiritually edifying ways such as Fred has been posting here. Were all messages of this type then perhaps little harm could be done by believing in the TM. But I worry a little about when that next bogus message may come and whether it will be recognizable as false.

 I'm a bit chary like the golf pro who made a bet with the club gambler, who asked for a handicap of "2 gotchas". The pro answered too quickly "OK" thinking to himself "Two of anything cannot overcome my golfing advantage." Well, on the first hole, just as the Pro was in his down swing, the gambler grabbed him from behind by his testicles and yelled "gotcha"! Needless to say, the Pro's game was ruined all day long playing with the gambler because he kept waiting for that second Gotcha.

 

15 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       Re: On channeling

Subject: Re: On channeling In-Reply-To: [9307152043.AA05904@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Hi Phil,

 Nice to see you hereabouts. Re non-appearances in the TM, I personally believe that the predictions of appearances are human and not celestial. How to separate out what the human heart desires from what is really coming through is not always easy for those IN the TM, either. I wonder how the revelators dealt with such verification problems. Their instructions, at the very least, appear to have presented very similarly in many cases to what we in the TM are experiencing. I wonder what they used as the acid test or tests. For myself, it does not seem so difficult to point to this and that and say, "yes", "no", "maybe, but we'll see", but I wouldn't want to judge that for others. I do not believe everything that comes out of the mouths of those in the TM. I do not believe everything that comes out of my own mouth. Some of what I do not believe may yet be true. I was faced with the choice of seeking incontrovertable truth before taking action or acting out of faith. It occasioned a rather large and lengthy dose of turmoil. That process began close to a year ago. So far I do not regret my choice. But I do sympathize with those who struggle with these questions because it is in my nature to struggle with them, too. I have always had a relatively logical mind (for a woman :) and have been rather demanding of verifications. It took awhile for the UB. It took until the past week for me to accept the TM as more than metaphor. Not so very long perhaps, but considering the intensity with which I have pursued things, not inconsiderable for the fact that I have been actively transmitting since October 1992. With doubts. I do not say that I will never again have a doubt; my mind is so constructed that I have occasionally had doubts of the veracity of the UB, too. But I use doubt for its balancing/ cautionary use and then try to move towards the Father's Truth to the best of my ability. So far, so good. Perhaps in the end, time will be the most telling. I expect this was true for the book itself, after all.

 Anyone who has any interest in asking me about my experiences transmitting for a TM group, please feel free. It might be interesting.

17 Jul 1993     David Kantor      Some Questions

Subject: Some Questions

 Saturday, July 17 Lafayette, CA

 Hello Friends,

 While I intend to find some time within the next couple of days to respond to the last week of posts, I would appreciate a response to the following. I am finding myself increasingly confused as I attempt to understand the TM because I have posts and transcripts which contain what appear to me to be conflicting statements about the TM. Could someone please answer the following questions -- short, single paragraphs would be preferred to long dissertations:

 1. What is the "Teaching Mission?"

 2. What is the purpose of the "Teaching Mission?"

 3. How is this purpose being pursued?

 4. What is the mechanism by which this is being accomplished?

 5. What specific conditions have changed since the transmission of The Urantia Book which have made the "Teaching Mission" possible? In other words, why weren't we clearly told in The Urantia Book that this would occur so relatively soon after the publication of the book?

 I would welcome answers to these questions from anyone, and would hope that individuals such as Byron or Bob Slagle who have positioned themselves somewhat as spokespersons would see fit to respond.

18 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       Some answers...

Subject: Some answers... In-Reply-To: [9307170352.AA17297@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Dear Logons,

 This is tough! I had decided to never do this. But as I was starting to attempt to answer David's questions, LinEL asked me if he could address them. I repeatedly asked if he meant it; he repeatedly said yes. I hope you will not ban me from your mailboxes. Yikes! Here is what he said...

 07/18/93

 "Greetings to all of you on this electronic network, this is LinEL. I wish to attempt to answer the sincere questions posed here about the Teaching Mission to the best of my ability."

 

 " The Teaching Mission is part of the fulfillment of the Fifth Epochal Revelation. It is supervised by Machiventa whose announcement of the Urantia book was the initial phase of this entire ministry. It is overseen ultimately by Michael himself in line with his will combined with that of the Father - that these rebellion torn worlds be uplifted. This will not shortcut time; for you to be offered truth does not obviate the need for your freewill choice of truth. This mission is the active phase of the UB and is called the Teaching Mission because it will ultimately inaugurate Melchizadek schools on this planet for the purpose of teaching the inhabitants of Urantia the contents of the Urantia book and more. People will come to the schools as they came to the Garden. The over-riding purpose is for the peoples of Urantia to learn to love the Father more fully and to love each other truly as children of that loving Father."

 " This is no magical venture. It means hard work, patience, and perseverence in the doing of the Father's will. It means following in the footsteps of him you call Master. It means utilizing all of your personality powers of creativity, intelligence and heart to deepen your own spiritual growth to the end that your service of your brothers and sisters yet in need will move forward. You know that your world needs these teachings. The work is here now; we are asking that you come together in love and do it. The revelation needs many dedicated groups with a strong bond of love and support for the apostolic work to be undertaken, and in order to develop the teaching methods and curriculum necessary for the time ahead. The Teaching Mission is bringing into being the much-needed increase in numbers of groups who are dedicated not only to studying the Urantia book, but to learning to live and to teach the living of the Religion of Jesus. This is the main way that it is bringing about its objectives - by the accumulation of groups of people who genuinely seek the Father's will and who desire to serve together in the spreading of the actual content of the Revelation, most particularly the teachings of Michael."

 " This Teaching Mission work of bringing about groups is accomplished in basically the same manner as the book was brought to you. There is contact by various personalities for the express purpose of forming working groups. You are doing basic, beginning morontia training under the tutorship of beings that include orders who would typically engage in your training had you already translated to the mansion worlds. Most who come to this mission have sufficient circle attainment to have already begun this morontial journey. TThe basic way of our utilizing your mind circuits in connection with ours is the same as techniques used with the Contact Commision when instructions about their process in working with the text of the book were given to them, except for the enhancement of such contact that we now have from the restoration of the circuitry. Many of my superiors spoke with the Contact Commission in very much the same manner as we do now with you. We do enjoy your humor and your language and care for you and your affairs. We are here to be your friends and co-workers as well as your teachers, to join together with you in this wonderful adventure of reclaiming Urantia."

 " There was no way to state specifically in the Urantia Book exactly when the adjudication and Machiventa's return would come about, but you will note that some of us believed it to be soon, and this is stated in the book. The reason for this is that such things are simply not predictable in the ways that you believe them to be. Truly of much of this, only Michael himself, and the Father know. Those who have been around us for awhile are coming to understand that we do not plan and structure in your linear manner, but rather inhabit the unfoldment of the Father's will. In this there is little precise prediction. It is difficult for you to understand because you are so used to layering your looking ahead with expectation and plans. We do not organize in the strictly linear-sequential manner that is typical amongst western educated Urantians. If you examine the Urantia Book, you will notice that there is not as much use of linear organizational structure as human usage might supply. Our approach is more organic, if you will - in many sections more like the composition of a painting than of an essay. This is part and parcel of our lives, and made it impossible for such a specific prediction about this aspect as your human hearts would desire. Even so, you will find mention of aspects of this mission, though not by name, if you seek. Often times you are not told what your faith choices must lead you to because we are forbidden to tamper with your free will."

 " This has led to problems in our mission already, this human desire for specific prediction. You simply must learn to give up this particular method of apparent validation of your beliefs. This is not the way of faith. We are not asking you to believe the unbelievable nor to validate the illogical, but the methods of so-called proof do not work to validate the choices of faith. Our 'predictions' are much more like statistical likelihoods. You will ever know more than you can believe, and faith will ever act in the very face of doubt. Sometimes you will be mistaken in this journey, but you will at least act, instead of remaining on the sidelines, where nothing can be learned. I have tried to the best of my ability to manage a relatively sequential answer to your questions. Thea could have done this much more clearly in human terms, but I wished to express myself in response to these sincere questions. "

 " I would ask you then to judge my words on their content rather than their structure. And know that all of us love all of you very much. We are excited at being a part of this great enterprise, the development of the Schools of Michael, together with you, for the upliftment of Urantia. Have you not all dreamed of a time like this, however far from you it was believed to be?! Have you not all longed to be part of something like this, serving the Father together in love? Come and join us. Come and share this service! If it does not feel right in your hearts after you have tried it, you can return to your chosen ways. I ask any of you who wish to serve Michael and your brothers and sisters in this manner to attempt to seek us out. You will not be disappointed. And should you chose not to so participate, you are no less loved and no less certain of your path to the Father's love."

 " The Father's love surrounds you, it inhabits you, it shines in and through you and streams onto you from all sides, it challenges you and thrills you and lifts you up. Wherever you are, you are ever within the grasp of his infinite caring and you are forever secure in his boundless concern for you. He loves you more than you can know. To love him, and each other, is the supreme delight of all the ages, and will carry you to his very heart and on beyond time. "

18 Jul 1993     Dennis Shields      When the cup is full carry it

Subject: When the cup is full carry it even

 Aloha

 David in response to your questions and neither advocating nor denying the Teaching Mission, I have observed as a common denominator the following generalities in the transcripts that I have read; these answers have in part derived from discussions with Sonny

 1. The Teaching Mission is the combination of the *stirring* of the Fathers desire to bring Urantia into light and life, in combination with Michaels plan to accelerate Urantia s attaining of light and life. The Teaching Mission follows the adjudication of the Lucifer rebellion and has as a feature the contacting of many individuals by Celestials.

 2. The purpose of the Teaching Mission is to bring mortals into closer communication with their thought adjusters by urging the practice of daily silent meditation (the stillness). the purpose is to bring Urantia into light and life sooner rather than later.

 3. This purpose is being pursued by individuals practicing the lessons and assignments of the Teachers and by the practice of living daily as in the presence of Deity. Also this purpose is being pursued by individuals applying Jesusonianism (my term).

 4. The mechanism by which this is being accomplished is Celestial Teachers instruct both individuals and groups. The groups publish tapes and transcripts. The groups have some intercommunication which enhances the sharing of these teachings and transcripts with interested persons.

 5. The specific conditions which have changed since the transmission of the Urantia book are the adjudication of the Lucifer rebellion, the opening of the circuits closed due to quarantine, the aforementioned stirring of the Father.

 As to having been told in the Urantia Book that this would occur so soon:

 Page-1251 Line-15 Para-2 *There is little likelihood that any marked change will be made in the government of Urantia during the present dispensation unless the vicegerent Planetary Prince should arrive to assume his titular responsibilities. It appears to certain of our associates that at some time in the near future the plan of sending one of the twenty- four counselors to Urantia to act as governor general will be superseded by the formal arrival of Machiventa Melchizedek with the vicegerent mandate of the sovereignty of Urantia. As acting Planetary Prince he would undoubtedly continue in charge of the planet until the final adjudication of the Lucifer rebellion and probably on into the distant future of planetary settlement in light and life. Some believe that Machiventa will not come to take personal direction of Urantian affairs until the end of the current dispensation. Others hold that the vicegerent Prince may not come, as such, until Michael sometime returns to Urantia as he promised when still in the flesh. Still others, including this narrator, look for Melchizedek's appearance any day or hour.*

 *Some time in the near future * *Any day or any hour* such statements would seem to indicate that we have been clearly told of the likely hood of such an event as happening shortly after the publishing of the book in fact such statements would not have ruled out this occurring before the publication of the book. It is a fundamental tenant in a multiplicity of transcripts that the involvement of Machiventa is as Planetary Prince and it is under his direction that the Teaching Mission takes place.

 I am not a first person participant in the reception of these transcripts. It is after discussing these statements with some one who is involved personally as to their fair representation that I make this reply. To some the TM represents something other than what I ve said here. These are only my observations and not meant to be in any sense authoritative.

19 Jul 1993     David Kantor      Quick note to Thea

Subject: Quick note to Thea

 Hi Thea;

 Thank you again for your response to my questions. I would ask another (and may have additional as I consider the answers provided) of you or any other logger who is into the TM and that is, is this a bestowal mission with a bestowal Son or is it strictly a Melchizedek operation?

 Yes, the implication of my objectivity relative to your subjectivity was present in my post, but was not my intention. I recognize my own inner life as being derived from my needs and wants, necessitating continuous attempts to steer clear of such obstacles. My present sense is that doing the Father's will is the only means we have at our disposal for transcending complete entrapment in subjectivity.

 David

19 Jul 1993     David Kantor      Another note for Thea

Subject: Another note for Thea

 Hello again, Thea;

 In reading over your recent posts a little more carefully, I find some ambiguity; I asked you some specific questions and you gave me a rather authoritative answer. But then you came back with the following:

 >> Were your questions as to the TM answered to your satisfaction? I mean by >> that, did LinEL et al give you a clear enough picture of what some inside >> the TM say that it is? Feel free to ask for clarification.

 Did you answer my questions, or did you simply give me an example of "what some inside the TM say that it is?" I would appreciate a clear answer to the questions I originally posted.

 Awaiting your reply,

 David

19 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       Re: Another note for Thea

Subject: Re: Another note for Thea In-Reply-To: [9307200044.AA19747@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Hi David,

 Now I am confused, too. Whether I answer, or LinEL, the only answers possible are what some inside the TM have for answers. I cannot answer from outside it. I don't consider my answer authoritative because I did not in fact answer you at all. One would presume that LinEL also could not answer from outside it! :) Are you asking for an answer from me? Are you asking me, as one person, or even LinEL as one person, to define what the TM is from both inside and outside? Are you looking for an authoritative answer? If so, who do you think would have it? I am not sure. And I am not sure what you are asking. But I am certainly willing to do my best once it is clear what you want. I think that might be at the heart of the problem of our dialogue. I really am not sure what you want. Looking forward to hearing from you,

20 Jul 1993     David Kantor      More Responses

Subject: More Responses

 Good Day, Logondonters...

 Thea, sometimes when I respond on the fly during the day, I don't really think things through as well as I should. Our exchange on subjectivity is a good example. I have come to have a much greater appreciation for our subjectivity as a result of reading Bredyaev's book on "Spirit and Reality." Rather than seeing subjectivity per se as the problem, I would rather use the UB idea of "the fetters of antecedent causation" -- our existence within the grasp of past experience and inheritance. In addition to our pursuit of the Father's will as a means of transcending this state of affairs, I also think that truth, beauty and goodness, as experiencable aspects of divinity, provide additional transcendence. The book also indicates that we become increasingly real as we achieve greater degrees of integration and unification of the components of our personalities -- I see this as a gradual salvation from the grip of a mechanical world.

 Dennis, thank you again for your straight-forward answers to my questions. Can you elaborate at all on the answer to question 4 -- can you describe the mechanism by which the "Celestial Teachers instruct both individuals and groups?"

 I would also be interested in having anyone respond with information about just what circuits have been opened. This phrase appears in a lot of TM talk, but it is very vague. Can anyone be more specific? Are these circuits unique to individuals or are they global such as the presence of the Spirit of Truth?

20 Jul 1993     Karen Day       TM Thoughts & Another Welco

Subject: TM Thoughts & Another Welco

 Subject: Time:9:56 AM OFFICE MEMO TM Thoughts & Another Welcome Date:7/20/93 7/20/93 Hi logondonters!

 I thought I'd better jump in here and offer some quick responses to recent posts while the topics are still timely.

 On David's TM Questions: Thea-- LinEL's response was excellent and beautifully stated.

 What LinEL said is very consistent with what I have read from Ham (Woodscross, Utah) and what has been told to me by Oren, our teacher in the Naperville study group, and also other teachers. I will try to look up some of the Oren transcripts and perhaps some other transcripts and relate some of what has been said regarding David's questions. But basically I concur with LinEL's response, and I also am in agreement with Dennis' responses.

 I'll summarize here in my own words what I know about the TM: Machiventa Melchizedek is now vicegerent Planetary Prince of Urantia, and heads the TM, and is acting under the direction of Michael and in accordance with Father's will. The TM is a second phase of the Fifth Epochal Revelation, following the Urantia Book, and is intended to uplift Urantia and accelerate our progress toward light and life. The celestial teachers are teaching us individually to commune daily with the Father (seek the stillness), dedicate ourselves to His will, and follow the guidance of our Thought Adjusters. The teachers are promoting spiritual growth and helping us bond relationships with one another. In turn, by each of us fueling our lights with the Father's love, they burn stronger and brighter and reflect off onto others, and the light becomes infectious. Eventually, a lot of little lights ignite some fires and they spread and grow. Light and life will not come overnight, but with slow, steady growth. The teachers are building infrastructure.

 Some addt'l comments: Because the TM transmissions come through humans, I try to look for the basic messages/content of what is being said and try to cross-reference messages with various teachers to confirm them, and then form my own understanding based upon this. One thing I might point out is that the teachers must work with each human transmitters' own vocabulary. This will sometimes constrain the message or adapt it differently from one person to another based upon each person's particular vocabulary. However, the celestials have told us that usually this is not a problem in getting their basic messages across to us, and that if we really did get something wrong that was important to correct, they would correct us. They are not giving us messages crafted in a particular language style to hold up to centuries of scrutiny-- instead they give us messages that convey concepts, guide us in spiritual growth, keep us in touch with them, with our TA's, with Father's love. The results are that we individually grow in our relationship to the Father and also develop stronger spiritual bonds with our brothers and sisters. I have seen this happen in our own study group. This is what the TM is causing.

 John Milam-- Welcome to the group. I like your idea about a Melchizedek College. I would however like to see study of the UB as part of the curriculum, but this may be a problem with the UF. I am hoping for a day when it will be easier to disseminate the information contained in the UB without the restrictive constraints of the UF. It seems that someone always has to worry about infringement on the copyright before they can produce something based on the UB (for example-- children's books, video tapes, multi-media, etc.-- a lot could be done). Sometimes I see this as a major barrier to spreading the UB. On the other hand, I think the TM has been quite helpful for me, because it has caused me to focus on the dynamic aspect of what is in the UB. There are many ways to grow spiritually and spread the light to others without specific reference to the UB. There is plenty of work to be done so I can't look for excuses!

 As I mentioned, I'll try to dig up some transcripts to cite some more specific answers, David, to your questions, as these are the type of questions that many are asking. What various transcripts offer will enhance what LinEL and Dennis have already provided.

 Well, I've just shot the whole morning. Now I know why I don't jump in with "quick responses" as often as I would like!

20 Jul 1993     Philip Calabrese      Re: Some TM answers...

Subject: Re: Some TM answers...

 ------- Logondonters, and Thea-LinEL,

 Thea, thank you again for your courage and humor in putting up the LinEL post in LinEL's name. Although you said, Thea, that you were motivated to write by David K's questions, it seemed to me as I read that some of the response was in reply to my own two posts just before David's questions. (For instance, David did not speak, this time, about the problem of bogus TM predictions.) So I feel moved to respond to what might have been directed my way.

 After carefully rereading the LinEL post again today I must say that I really don't yet know from my own personal experience whether or not the TM is what it purports to be. If the TM is valid, then I may be one of the last to "get it", which I will not let trouble me. I've been last before. Better to be last and right than first and wrong.

 The Urantia Book does leave open, even makes likely, the possibility of Machiventa coming to Urantia "at any hour" to start some new program. Most of us thought this would be some visible event, although that would have been pretty surprising to the rest of the world. But a set of private and semi-private, sometimes erroneous, difficult-to-validate channeling episodes was hardly in any one's mind as far as I know. But that is what we have to individually judge.

 Oh what is a poor ambiguity-intolerant person to do?

 This is not to say that I am a stranger to faith. Faith assumptions are the foundation of all knowledge, even mathematical knowledge. Science (including mathematics) has undefined words and unproved assumptions (which it's dogmatists all too often forget). Religion's assertions are ultimately based on someone's subjective personal experience of God as a First Source, Universal Truth and Absolute Good somehow perceivable by that person. Even more, God can be perceived as an actual person who loves in a way that can really be felt. I have had at least one such experience of that love that was so vivid and compelling that it still reverberates through my whole life. I don't doubt that it was my answer to sincere questions.

 Whether the TM is what it says I do not yet know of my own personal experience, but I do recognize spiritual truth when I read it, and the words that Fred Harris and Thea have posted hereon have rung true for me. That is perhaps enough for now. I do not have to know that the TM is valid/invalid in order to appropriate for myself the spiritual help that is available in the simple, uncomplicated and straightforward words of spiritual encouragement that many of the TM posts have constituted. Being a smorgasbord truth picker has its advantages! I have often noticed that the emotional and intellectual impact of these short, simple, spiritual statements has far surpassed that of the long-winded 20+ minute sermons that I listen to every Sunday in church. That in itself, considering how windy we humans can be when given an audience, is impressive in itself!

 I was particularly aware in the LinEL statement of the "non- linear" time treatment of work and events. Yes, I have recognized in the UB a very distinct non-linear logic at work. The papers do not try to give a definitive, logical account in one place for any topic. Rather, one almost has to read the whole book to get all there is on any one topic. Words are not defined in a mathematical way down to "undefined, intuitively obvious terms" that everyone grasps in natural language. Like a dictionary, words are defined circularly so that the result is a linguistic cloth without edges. I can imagine that the morontia worlds are not slave to time as we know it (although they live in time.) They could be much more unsystematic - organic in their plans and operations. Things that might seem about to happen could be long delayed. I am also aware of the fact that time itself is not really linear but a circular simultaneity of events that our minds organize in sequential form in order to understand the motions of matter and mind and soul that we experience.

 One further question then I would ask of LinEL: Why do TM students sometimes predict events? What goes wrong here and how can we be alert to such mistaken communications if and when they occur in the future? Are we to discount the validity of any statement of a predicted event? If so, are their any other types of messages that we should beware of? (Gee, that's at least one question.)

20 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       Re: Some TM answers...

Subject: Re: Some TM answers... In-Reply-To: [9307201930.AB12926@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Dear Phil,

 Thanks for your thoughtful response! I am not all that long away from being in a position not that different from your own, with the exception being that I chose to go ahead and act upon what was happening to me as a faith journey. I have my doubts from time to time anyway, and things happen that challenge my ambiguity tolerances. Predictions drive me wild; one teacher has said to me that humans predict, teachers do not. Yet I have dear brothers and sisters on both sides of that divide and do not know whether I am to tolerate or challenge! Having chosen to believe that the TM is what it purports to be does not end the intellectual struggles, that is for sure. I can understand from certain aspects of psychology why students would predict. Yet from my own psychology, I doubt that a teacher could get a prediction through me, and what if there truly was one? Ah, it is a challenge, believe me, dear brother, an ongoing one! I was touched by the personal reality of your response, a sense of who you are and your sincerity and love for the truth. In my book, you (and any sincere seekers) need not do any more than you are doing. You are seeking. In this virtual place, there are many of us sincerely seeking in our own ways, and our diversity is part of our strength. I, too, have always been a seeker of truth from whatever the source and I agree that it makes things, if not easier, perhaps more enjoyable in the pursuit of the spirit, perhaps deeper. It was that truth that rang in me that led me into this mission. It is less important whether we are on one side or another of one of the many so-called dividing lines here than that we do that - take the truth we perceive and try to live it. With the strength of the Father, I will do that forever.

 Thank you again for your post; I will look it over for more specifics and post again.

 

20 Jul 1993     Dennis Shields      Some people think they are gen

Subject: Some people think they are generous because they give away free advice

 Aloha speakers of logonese

 David re: 4. What is the mechanism by which this is being accomplished?

 To the best of my understanding a TR after engaging in the stillness will begin to have the impression of words and word groupings form in their consciousness. The TR then repeats or records (either written or spoken) these word strings which again, as I understand this, seem to have a direction of their own. It also seems to be common among TRs to go through a self questioning at least at first which runs along the line of did I say this or did they say this. I have witnessed and spoken to TRs during the editing process where these kinds of self doubts are raised and I've seen where a TR after such questionings has come to the conclusion that they would not have expressed them selves in such fashions as they find themselves recording the thoughts of another personality with different styles of expression than those the TR in question would normally use to express them selves. I have seen a TR become impressed with the concept that the degree of profoundness of a particular message as being above and beyond their own depth of intellect. In the Kona group there is one TR who has not read the UB yet their transmissions contain Urantian concepts which are unfamiliar to this individual normally.

 I would like to add a few words here on the process of recording editing and transcribing spoken dialog into transcripts. Often times the audio tapes of a TR session require multiple replays in order to transcribe even one paragraph. Voices are often soft the delivery given in single words and burst of word strings. Some TRs are able to, in a *stream of consciousness*, pour out the messages. Others are slow hesitant almost painfully able to get out one word at a time. Most TRs I have experienced discussing this process with, have very humble attitudes regarding themselves and the messages coming through them.

 On only two occasions have I seen examples of non humble attitudes both of which I have mentioned in earlier postings. One was material from Sedona. The other was a neighbor who was claiming to be the express envoy of Michael and who claimed I was a primary Midwayer incarnate here for this (the TM) special assignment.

 Other than these two aberrations, individuals transcribing these messages seem to be learning the process of transferring the messages to the written page as they go. I have given the service of helping along individuals with computerese ineptitude's. These Teachers are not picking people with professional stenographer talents.

 To read transcripts in the *raw* state that is before the proofing by the original TR is enlightening as a single misunderstood word can dramatically alter the meaning of a whole paragraph transforming what seemed to be gobbledygook into something quite profound.

 I would reiterate I am not personally receiving messages. These statements are only my observations and do not express the viewpoint of a TR. I claim no authority on the TM, if some one more intimately wishes to express their experience with the Teachers I urge them to do so.

 

20 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       Re: Some people think they are

Subject: Re: Some people think they are generous because they give away free advice In-Reply-To: [9307202154.AA18864@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Very clear description of the process, Dennis. Certainly fits my personal experience. Thanks for your clarification.

 Was that the jist of your question about point 4, David? Or was there another aspect or aspects you wished addressed?

21 Jul 1993     Byron Belitsos      Conflict/harmony

Subject: Conflict/harmony

 Dear friends,

 I am a busy guy these days, getting ready to go out of town for two weeks -- one week of which will be spent at IC93 (see you there Leo? and Fred !). I look forward to taking on the mendacious heretics in the paint-gun war of the millennium proposed by Dick. We choose azure.

 Meanwhile, friends, I do not think I will have another chance to log on again until I return on August 5. Leaving early on Friday morning for a long overdue family reunion on the East coast which I am really looking forward to.

 I do not have time to do justice to your five TM questions David. Within in the next year or so I plan to write a long paper about my own views on the TM. This will be for consumption by the UB community only and so would address your questions directly.

 If we can assume you are on the same track as you have been for the last six months, I expect you will use the replies to your questions in order to continue to build your case against the TM. Of course, it is your perfect right to do so, if you feel that the Spirit of Truth animates this effort. Your next public platform for assailing the TM would presumably be your speech at the conference in Boulder in October, is that correct?

 The answers to your blunt questions about the TM are really within you David. The conflicts that you perceive *could* be harmonized, I think you will admit. It is a matter of what the observer brings to the thing observed. But consider also the factor of evolution and timing. The Christians were not able to harmonize the conflicting views about who Jesus was until the Council of Nicea -- some three centuries later. Even then it required ostracizing some parts of the community of the faithful. We are finding that even a having "standard" revealed text cannot prevent ambiguity, conflicting interpretation, and denominationalism during the early decades of the UB's existence.

 It is not time, in my view, for systematic theologians such as yourself to attempt to precisely define the TM. I think one would need to wait years, even decades, for this to be a truly rewarding enterprise, and I would frankly rather leave such a task to historians of religion than to theologians.

 The TM is a vast, planetary project (that also appears to embrace other rebellion planets) and it is just beginning to unfold. As I understand it, it will in time address each of the civilizations of Urantia. It appears that many adjustments will be made in order to adapt to changing conditions and the unpredictability of human free will.

 One major adjustment that may have not been anticipated was its broad rejection by the Urantia movement leadership, to which you David have contributed in no small part. So you see again, my old friend, that you may look inside for answers to your own questions, for you yourself are affecting the course of this Mission in a material way as it attempts to address this pocket of civilization. Whereas some part of the TM's "mechanism", as you call it, may have been the Urantia movement as such, the celestials appear to be moving on at least in part to a "Plan B", whatever than may be.

 As you know, most of the transcripts are public domain and are replete with multi-faceted definitions of the TM's purpose. You have found conflicting statements about the TM in these texts. You will also find conflicts in the one-paragraph answers that you requested. So you will be back at square one again, back to what I believe is your original assumption: "the TM is filled with conflicting statements about its purpose and mechanism, etc., which proves etc., etc."

 I did consider that you may have a counter-assumption. Let's imagine "we" were to somehow give you the engineering-precise definition you seek. This would likely become the basis for your argument that the TM is a specific "denomination" that follows peculiar practices and beliefs -- and is therefore easily seen as peripheral to the mainstream of the Urantia movement.

 Such a precise definition seems impossible, so I suggest that you go forward with the assumption of the TM's inconsistency. This should suit your purposes best. As you make your public case, state that the TM advocates think its purposes are multi-dimensional and harmonizeable, while its opponents see it as rife with contradiction -- further evidence of its subjective origin.

 I should add that the transcripts make clear across the board, that the TM is part of the preparation for Michael's return. I suggest you include some of these quotes in your paper. As you know, this purpose is stated in dozens of places in many transcripts, including our own Oklahoma City transcripts. I expect that you will also find unresolveable conflicts among these quotes as well.

 I believe I understand your motivation for your ongoing case against the TM, David, and it is something I do pray about -- and have asked our Teachers about on several occasions. I esteem your attempts to confront and understand the TM phenomenon. I recently received lengthy input in a private session on how to understand you (and Sara) better, specifically, since it has troubled me at times. As you raise the stakes of your public opposition, I am sure you are checking deeply inside for some validation for your position from Michael's Spirit of Truth, the same Spirit which apparently leads me to diametrically opposed interpretations to yours, and which allows you and I to find spiritual unity despite our diversity of opinions.

21 Jul 1993     Karen Day       Some more on the TR process

Subject: Some more on the TR process

 Hi all. I have some comments on the TR process (& a quick note to Fred).

 Dennis-- I found your description of the TR process to be well-stated. You seem to have a good understanding of it. I'll add a few of my own comments that come to mind.

 Although those of us who transmit usually say we are "hearing" messages, we don't actually hear voices but rather get thought impressions as you describe. What I try to do is put myself (my own thoughts) aside and allow the teacher to impress thought-words upon me. Often I get a concept before I get the word stream to fit the concept (I know what the teacher wants to say but I must be patient and allow the words to express this thought to come through). I also usually get a strong "sense" of the particular teacher, a sense of presence or personality. For some teachers, this is a very strong feeling. Welmek (Indianapolis), for example, has a strong presence. Each teacher has a distinct signature, like a frequency. Some are "heavier" than others. In the Naperville study group (Oren's group) we often have open transmission sessions where anyone who is able to transmit will allow teachers to come through in turn. This is where I have been able to transmit different teachers and experience different senses of presence. Others in our group also experience this. Each time we transmit in this manner it is a confirmation for me of the reality of the TM and the TR process, because I can physically sense other being presences. Also, the experience is always a very positive one.

 Another point I will mention is that the TR must be willing to transmit. Transmission will not occur against someone's will. It is also beneficial to be relaxed and have a clear mind. Our group's main TR says she always prays for clarity of transmission before beginning, and I have picked up on this habit as well. I also try to focus on a "higher mind", that is, allow a "higher mind" to come through instead of my own. Some in the group visualize the teacher taking them by their hand and stepping them aside as the teacher begins to transmit.

 The hardest part I have had is with questions, as the tendency is to try to "listen in" on the question, but actually you have to keep yourself out of it (detached) and allow the teacher to listen and respond.

 There is definitely a skill development involved in the TR process. I consider myself a novice and admire those who are making a lot of progress. I feel fortunate to be part of a teacher group where there are several very dedicated TR's, and we are also a group who is very dedicated to doing the Father's will and are strongly based in the UB. I think it is more difficult for those who have not experienced the TR process first-hand and over a long period of time to make a decision about its validity. I encourage those who are questioning the TM and the TR process to continue to examine it closely. I began by reading the Ham transcripts, then listening carefully to the Ham tapes, then observing our own teacher group develop, and my own experiences with transmission. I still always examine it. So far, for me, it continues to be a worthy mission.

 Fred-- really enjoyed your message on creativity. It's inspiring. I would much rather be painting or writing or playing my guitar than working on a computer (what I'm supposed to be doing right now) in an office without windows.

21 Jul 1993     Karen Day       TM Thoughts & Another Welco

Subject: TM Thoughts & Another Welco

 Subject: Time:2:16 PM OFFICE MEMO TM Thoughts & Another Welcome Date:7/21/93 7/21/93 I actually posted this yesterday but I don't think I received it through the mail group so I am assuming it didn't get through-- *PLEASE* ignore if this is a duplicate (and next time I'll try to pay better attention!!!). ---------------------------------------------

 7/20/93

 I thought I'd better jump in here and offer some quick responses to recent posts while the topics are still timely.

 On David's TM Questions: Thea-- LinEL's response was excellent and beautifully stated.

 What LinEL said is very consistent with what I have read from Ham (Woodscross, Utah) and what has been told to me by Oren, our teacher in the Naperville study group, and also other teachers. I will try to look up some of the Oren transcripts and perhaps some other transcripts and relate some of what has been said regarding David's questions. But basically I concur with LinEL's response, and I also am in agreement with Dennis' responses.

 I'll summarize here in my own words what I know about the TM: Machiventa Melchizedek is now vicegerent Planetary Prince of Urantia, and heads the TM, and is acting under the direction of Michael and in accordance with Father's will. The TM is a second phase of the Fifth Epochal Revelation, following the Urantia Book, and is intended to uplift Urantia and accelerate our progress toward light and life. The celestial teachers are teaching us individually to commune daily with the Father (seek the stillness), dedicate ourselves to His will, and follow the guidance of our Thought Adjusters. The teachers are promoting spiritual growth and helping us bond relationships with one another. In turn, by each of us fueling our lights with the Father's love, they burn stronger and brighter and reflect off onto others, and the light becomes infectious. Eventually, a lot of little lights ignite some fires and they spread and grow. Light and life will not come overnight, but with slow, steady growth. The teachers are building infrastructure.

 Some addt'l comments: Because the TM transmissions come through humans, I try to look for the basic messages/content of what is being said and try to cross-reference messages with various teachers to confirm them, and then form my own understanding based upon this. One thing I might point out is that the teachers must work with each human transmitters' own vocabulary. This will sometimes constrain the message or adapt it differently from one person to another based upon each person's particular vocabulary. However, the celestials have told us that usually this is not a problem in getting their basic messages across to us, and that if we really did get something wrong that was important to correct, they would correct us. They are not giving us messages crafted in a particular language style to hold up to centuries of scrutiny-- instead they give us messages that convey concepts, guide us in spiritual growth, keep us in touch with them, with our TA's, with Father's love. The results are that we individually grow in our relationship to the Father and also develop stronger spiritual bonds with our brothers and sisters. I have seen this happen in our own study group. This is what the TM is causing.

 John Milam-- Welcome to the group. I like your idea about a Melchizedek College. I would however like to see study of the UB as part of the curriculum, but this may be a problem with the UF. I am hoping for a day when it will be easier to disseminate the information contained in the UB without the restrictive constraints of the UF. It seems that someone always has to worry about infringement on the copyright before they can produce something based on the UB (for example-- children's books, video tapes, multi-media, etc.-- a lot could be done). Sometimes I see this as a major barrier to spreading the UB. On the other hand, I think the TM has been quite helpful for me, because it has caused me to focus on the dynamic aspect of what is in the UB. There are many ways to grow spiritually and spread the light to others without specific reference to the UB. There is plenty of work to be done so I can't look for excuses!

 As I mentioned, I'll try to dig up some transcripts to cite some more specific answers, David, to your questions, as these are the type of questions that many are asking. What various transcripts offer will enhance what LinEL and Dennis have already provided.

 Well, I've just shot the whole morning. Now I know why I don't jump in with "quick responses" as often as I would like!

21 Jul 1993     Fred Harris         TM IC93

Subject: TM IC93

 Like Byron, this will be my last posting until after IC93. Flying to Boston tomorrow for a little family vacation prior to the meeting.

 A few comments before I go. With respect to some of the internal inconsistencies and botched predictions, I have a couple of theories. Predictions seem to be celestial screw ups caused in part by their inability to get a grasp on our lineal time orientation. I still don't know why they won't advise people of the problems before the prediction goes wrong (perhaps they don't know either), and they have very lame excuses after it doesn't come to pass. They need to get a grip and take the rap if necessary. I prefer to ignore all predictions as they infringe upon free will and are a distraction from the basic message. That's why you won't see me post them. We have finally trained Will to refrain from attempting them. We told her that being invisible was no excuse!

 With respect to inaccuracies, I believe that much of that is the coloration that is inherent in the process of using human transmitters. Don't hang on every word, take the broad view and use the Spirit of Truth to get the substance of the concepts and you will feel much better about the inconsistencies. Here is an interesting excerpt regarding this very topic:

 "Although legitimately and continuously open to challenge and question on grounds of accuracy, we think the ministry stands solidly, unassailably secure on the grounds of faith progress. It emboldens the people, and makes them feel closer to their God. Therefore we freely admit the problems of accuracy, colorization, and consequent error. We are, after all, engaged in a ministry, not a restatement. Books lend themselves to static policy statements of principle. This ministry takes advantage of a quality only hinted at in books - the dynamic, ever-growing thrilling nature of the relationship between God and human. We make no attempt to secure ourselves from error.

 "You people question Perfection itself. Why should you take faith offense at inaccuracies of communication? How reliable are your own scientific communication systems? Very - in theory and design - but putting such designs into service introduces undrempt complications. So it is with us. It is the price of forward motion - friction. It is a law of nature. If the friction is unbearable, retrogression is an option. So far, none have elected to abandon for reasons of too offensive error.

 "We are far from the realms of Havona. Our efforts are inescapably rough of technique, yet ever pure of intent, and productive of progress toward Perfection.

 "Press on, then, in search of your own destiny of glorification - identity with the First Source and Center."

 With respect to what the Teaching Mission is all about, I would offer several quotes.

 "Your mission is a simple one. Conduct your lives in such a way with joyful countenance radiating the light of God. This will be so attractive to those who are willing to serve this mission and do the will of the Father that they will seek you out and ask you from whence this light comes. Your message is a simple one. The same good news that Crist Michael delivered almost 2000 years ago. Know by faith that your eternal Creator Father exists and you each are His spiritual children, here on Urantia. Thus, you then become brothers and sisters in spirit, living to elevate each other with your love and service to one another manifesting thereby the ultimate purpose of the creation, to love one another."

 "Do not look at one another with anything but an attitude of unselfish service for this is the way in the universe...Go forth each day and in whatever way you feel comfortable proclaim this good news."

 "It is time to literally do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Do not intellectualize this any more...It is time to make it real, it is time to live it."

 "You see, when we are about the Father's business, this is an example of God's love in action. God's love is always moving, dynamic. It has no real boundaries and it simply is given out. Sometimes when we are afraid, when we doubt about things that we know on some level to be true, we block this process. Sometimes when we are overcome with fear, it is shot out of our consciousness. So, my children, we must learn how to keep the channel open to receiving this divine flow...God's love in action is how we react to our brothers and sisters...Love in action is touching a friend on the shoulder at the right moment, a smile to a stranger, even holding a door for someone. Be not afraid in your lives to show forth this love. Only good will result. Only good will come to you."

 "You, then, having understood this teaching and as you increase in your knowledge will also go forth in the world radiating the light of God through you and become beacons of light and truth in a world of chaos and darkness."

 "Why not begin today, right now, in a new and concentrated effort to serve our Father and to serve one another. Each morning rededicate hyourself to this promise and, in time, you will find a renewed self."

22 Jul 1993     David Kantor      Some Responses to the TM

Subject: Some Responses to the TM

 July 21, 1993 Lafayette, CA

 Good evening, Friends...

 Phil, I have heard you say similar things on a number of occasions but I always enjoy hearing it again -- "Faith assumptions are the foundation of all knowledge, even mathematical knowledge." A great statement, Phil, and I enjoy savoring its implications.

 Thanks to all who responded with information about the TM. Just to clarify, per Thea's request, what I was looking for with my question was not something authoritative but rather something definitive. The significant conflicts which I see in the transcripts have made it impossible for me to formulate a clearly definitive idea of just what the TM is supposed to be.

 For example, I can make a clear statement, "The Urantia Book is the fifth epochal revelation of truth to the people of our planet." I can then defend and explicate that statement extensively. I can also abandon it if someone shows me a reason why it is false. It is not an authoritative statement, but it is definitive. My understanding of the universe which I derive from reading the UB leads me to conclude that all universe phenomenon have such a factual dimension. If indeed the TM is a valid universe phenomenon, it too should have a factual component. If one cannot be formulated and rationally defended, then I would be justified in maintaining my position that the TM is nothing more than a diffuse collage of superconscious illusions loosely related under the rubric of "Teaching Mission."

 Karen, Dennis and Thea have formulated fairly clear descriptions, and I thank you for doing so. Whether or not they can be rationally defended and justified remains to be seen. Remember that there are 3 elements of universe reality -- fact, idea and relationship (pg 2094) which are commonly designated as thing, meaning and value. I interpret this to mean that any "phenomenon" which is a reality is comprised of these three elements. In other words, thing, meaning and value are attributes of any valid reality. If the TM is a valid universe phenomenon, it must have a factual identity, it must have a meaning, and it must have a value -- these are simply the basic starting points for even defining something as a "reality."

 Again, I'm looking for neither an "engineering precise" definition nor an authoritative statement, only a *definitive* statement.

 One issue I would like to raise is the use hereon of the term "spirit of truth." People use such phrases as "consult with my spirit of truth", "checking for validation for your position from Michael's Spirit of Truth", "relying on Michael's Spirit of Truth to discern what is valid and what is not valid [in TM transcripts]" -- all of these statements lead me to question the degree to which the nature and functioning of this spirit helper is understood.

 Consider these quotes:

 Page-2060 "The first mission of this spirit is, of course, to foster and personalize truth, for it is the comprehension of truth that constitutes the highest form of human liberty. Next, it is the purpose of this spirit to destroy the believer's feeling of orphanhood. Jesus having been among men, all believers would experience a sense of loneliness had not the Spirit of Truth come to dwell in men's hearts."

 Page-2063 "This spirit was bestowed for the purpose of qualifying believers more effectively to preach the gospel of the kingdom, but they mistook the experience of receiving the outpoured spirit for a part of the new gospel which they were unconsciously formulating."

 Page-2065 "The coming of the Spirit of Truth purifies the human heart and leads the recipient to formulate a life purpose single to the will of God and the welfare of men."

 Page-383 "Having started out on the way of life everlasting, having accepted the assignment and received your orders to advance, do not fear the dangers of human forgetfulness and mortal inconstancy, do not be troubled with doubts of failure or by perplexing confusion, do not falter and question your status and standing, for in every dark hour, at every crossroad in the forward struggle, the Spirit of Truth will always speak, saying, "This is the way."

 

 Note that the ministry of this Spirit (and please respond if you think I'm wrong) is a *spiritual* ministry. Nowhere in the UB do I find that this spirit provides an aid in the domain of factual knowledge. Note the page 383 quote above; this spirit works and speaks in our moments of *decision* in order to provide guidance on our spiritual path -- it does not validate facts. (I'm assuming that no one is equating *truth* with *factual knowledge*).

 Byron, there seems to be a lot of projection and a lot of unwarranted assumption in your writing, both about me and about reality in general. The ideas you express in your writing certainly do not relate to those presented in The Urantia Book in any constructive way that I can see. Consider your statement,

 "I should add that the transcripts make clear across the board, that the TM is part of the preparation for Michael's return....As you know, this purpose is stated in dozens of places in many transcripts."

 Compare your statement above with this quote from the UB:

 Page-1866 "Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arise proclaiming "the kingdom of God is at hand"--meaning a return to the high spiritual concept of Jesus, who proclaimed that the kingdom is the will of his heavenly Father dominant and transcendent in the heart of the believer--and doing all this without in any way referring either to the visible church on earth or to the anticipated second coming of Christ."

 It is clear to me that the TM is veering off at a significant tangent from the basic conceptual framework of The Urantia Book. This is not just some unresolved logical conflict -- this is a major conceptual disjuncture. Your statement places you in the company of sign-seekers from every generation since the time of the Master's bestowal who have found reason to believe in his immediate return.

 I have no dispute with the Teaching Mission other than the fact that you are severely distorting the meaning of a text which is of great importance to the world in which we live. My task has been merely to call you to account for what you are doing and you have failed repeatedly to respond in any meaningful way. You have repeatedly attacked me personally both directly and by implication, but you have not responded to the rather serious problems and inconsistencies in your position with a coherent defense based on the teachings contained in The Urantia Book.

 I also am not buying the defense that the U movement has been overly intellectual and hence needs the ministrations of the "Teaching Mission." As I review programs from conferences over the past decade, I see a preponderance of spiritual topics being dealt with and relatively few talks given on abstract intellectual topics. Not only topics of talks, but workshops on worship, family issues, walking with God in daily life, etc. In my view, a major problem is that people who have the UB are *not* really studying it. There is a significant lack of intellectual commitment to discovering the models of reality presented in the book and an ever ready tendency to jump to conclusions based on implied meanings of isolated passages of the text. The other tendency is that of structuring one's life relative to apocraphyl stories and imaginary potentials while relegating Jesus' gospel and the rest of the text itself to the back burner.

 Incidentally, my talk in Boulder this fall is on worship and I have no intention of even mentioning the teaching mission.

 Dennis, Thea and Karen, I would like to address one of your statements about the TM. Thea writes:

 "The basic way of our utilizing your mind circuits in connection with ours is the same as techniques used with the Contact Commission when instructions about their process in working with the text of the book were given to them, except for the enhancement of such contact that we now have from the restoration of the circuitry. Many of my superiors spoke with the Contact Commission in very much the same manner as we do now with you."

 And Dennis, you stated:

 "A TR after engaging in the stillness will begin to have the impression of words and word groupings form in their consciousness. The TR then repeats or records...these word strings which...seem to have a direction of their own."

 Karen, you seem to concur with Thea and add some additional description which expands the explanation offered by Dennis -- Thea, you also seem to concur with Dennis.

 The procedure which has thus been described, and which I have read in other TM references as well, is in no way related to the procedure by which the Celestials communicated with members of the Contact Commission.

 I had personal friendships and numerous conversations with two of the Contact Commissioners and I have had friendships over many years with a number of members of the Forum. Let me share with you my understanding of how this process occurred, based on conversations with individuals who were actually involved. occurred.

 The assumptions of the TM grossly underestimate the difficulty involved in actually communicating information to the mortal mind. The only communication gateway I've been able to identify is the neurological system itself, the actual physical sensory mechanism of the mortal body.

 Celestial communication with material creatures appears to involve a substantial coordinated effort on the part of physical controllers and midwayers, as well as other factors. In the case of the Contact Commission, there was a "subject" who was asleep (and had no later recollection of the events which occurred while he was asleep) during communications. The midwayers managed the actual physical manipulation of the subject's body so that words were formed and spoken into the room for all to hear in the normal cadence, rythms and intonations of mortal speech. The "Celestials" who wanted to communicate to the Contact Commission had to give their information to the midwayers, who used the physical body of the subject to actually form and speak words which were transmitted through the air to the actual physical ears of the Contact Commissioners.

 Likewise, when the Commissioners wanted to address the "Celestials", they spoke with actual physical words. There was no inner experience in any of the Contact Commissioners remotely resembling channeling or the types of mental formations which TM adherents claim to be communications from "Celestials." Again, TM adherents underestimate the ease with which such communication can take place. Recall the quote on page 539 which indicates that even on Jerusem, the ascendent mortals must carry the equivalent of electronic devices in order to receive space communications. These devices compensate "for the inability to directly adjust the immature morontia sensory mechanism to the reception of space communications." The revelators are making this statement about *ascenders on Jerusem* and yet TM adherents maintain that a biological mortal brain on an evolutionary world can receive external spirit communications -- *highly* unlikely in my estimation.

 So I must ask the question again -- what is the mechanism by which this supposed communication is taking place? It is definitely in no way similar to the manner in which the Contact Commissioners experienced their communications nor does it bear any resemblance to the methods for communication used by mortals who have managed to make it to Jerusem and are still considered to have "immature morontia sensory mechanisms."

 I also ask, "What circuitry?" These phrases referring to "circuits being opened" are very generic -- just what circuits do you mean? Even if you postulate that *all* circuits are now open (not possible for several reasons, even if the rebellion had recently been adjudicated), which circuits could possibly enable the kind of communication you're describing? The UB indicates that with the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth, as far as mortals were concerned, the fact of planetary isolation had become irrelevant. (1254)

 As far as I can tell, the circuits which were shut down at the time of the rebellion were circuits specifically established for the super-human administration of the planet and not directly related to mortal functioning. Recall that at the time the Prince's staff arrived, the life carriers and physical controllers lifted DNA from 100 Andonites to use for the construction of material bodies for the Prince's corporeal staff. At the same time, they altered the DNA of these contributors so that they could be receptive to the system circuits. Note that this was a hard-wired physical modification which enabled this encircuitment. And while these members of the Prince's staff eventually reproduced after the rebellion (giving rise to another race), I can't imagine that these engineered genes (which are still floating around in our gene pool) could possibly come together in any individual in such a way as to re-enable such encircuitment, let alone in multiple individuals from a variety of genetic lines in the same generation.

 In addition, even when the Satania portion of the circuits are re- established, there will still be the issue of the Norlatiadek quarantine (529) which seems to be a whole separate matter which will have to be dealt with *after* the adjudication and which must be lifted before those circuits can be restored to normal operation.

 The book also indicates on page 394 that it takes a bestowal Son to re-establish these circuits on an evolutionary planet once the rebellion has been adjudicated. I take this to mean an actual bestowal mission to the planet where the circuits are being made operational in order to oversee the inevitable changes such an event would precipitate.

 If anyone has a different view of how all this stuff works based on a model derived from a thorough study of The Urantia Book, I would really like to hear about it.

 We'd all be much farther along, imo, if we paid more attention to the revelation we've got on our book shelves and spent less time straining to discern another one amidst the longings and desires of our hearts, before we assimilate the one we've already been given.

 Thea, Dennis and Karen, what is your response to what I have said here? Am I misreading The Urantia Book? Thea, do you agree with Fred's statements about Jesus being a barrier? Byron, how do you reconcile Fred's statement about Jesus with your statement about the purpose of the TM being to prepare the way for Jesus' return?

 Again, I appreciate your responses and hope that you will pursue the issues I have raised here.

22 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       Re: Some Responses to the TM

Subject: Re: Some Responses to the TM In-Reply-To: [9307221619.AA02419@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Dear David,

 I haven't got the time at the moment to answer every one of your questions as I am trying to get the tape in the mail to you. I would make a remark or two.

 As for the answers about the TM you asked recently, I did not answer you. I think I would prefer your saying something like allegedly LinEL or some such. You can indicate your disbelief; I have no problem with that. But it is confusing to some as it does not distinguish between the two of us (or the two parts of me, as you would have it :) I do not agree with everything that I have heard in all transcripts. The teachers are individuals, and the TRs are individuals. By one definition or another, there are individuals here somewhere [grin]! And I take what I like and leave the rest. I expect that such an approach will seem very peculiar to the structure of your own approach of understanding. It represents decades of personal modification of my own intellectual approach, but has stood me in good stead. For instance, there is this thing beloved to all, or most, of us, called the Urantia book. But there appear to be as many interpretations of its meanings as there are readers. One person will use a quote to demonstrate a certain position and another will attempt to demonstrate his or hers with the same quote, but a different position. I have often marveled that people have read the same book that I have. I try very carefully to ascertain exact meanings, actually. Yet others like yourself do so as well and often we do not come up with the same meanings. I can assume that my opinion is always the right one. I can assume that someone else's opinion is the right one. I can listen to arguments one way or another, which can change my opinion as to the meaning. I can assume that the fullest meaning is not provided by any one of us, but that we come to it best by listening to everyone's understanding of the meanings with an open mind. This latter is what I tend to believe and try to do and why I do not feel threatened by differences in interpretation per se (I sometimes wince from more personal aspersions). I do not believe that everyone whose understandings of the UB disagree with mine is automatically wrong or misguided or psychologically unsound or intellectually deficient. Dear David, I am afraid that such is the impression you have made here, though I really don't believe that this is what you have meant to do. Michael told us that we were not all to think alike. I think we have to find ways to respect that diversity while still trying to get at an accurate truth. As you know from experience, this is not an easy task. For one thing (thinking of you, Phil, for a moment) it requires some tolerance of ambiguity, for a suspended possibility while one is looking into things. I find that my mental process is starting to run two programs in tandem, as it were. One holds up my thus-far best conceived understanding of the truth. The other holds up nothing, and tests the various waters as they come in as data streams. I find the sensation of running these two progs simultaneously rather interesting and sometimes uncomfortable, though less so with practice, but I don't see any other way to both try to serve the truth as I see it and yet remain open to the fact that I am human, limited, and subject to arrogance if I assert that my opinion is the only truth. I am not always well able to articulate it, David, but I am perhaps a more careful thinker than you might imagine. There is little mentioned on here that I have not thought about at length and in some depth. I find myself in the predicament of ever knowing and understanding more than I can articulate!! I expect I am not alone. I think in concepts more now than in words. (I will argue wildly with the theoretical position that says thinking requires words because as a thinker, artist and musician, I work in concepts all the time; granted, it may have required the language skills initially...) At any rate, for the reasons stated above, I welcome the diversity here. I do not think we can ever come at a full picture of the truth alone! I do not believe that our universe was created this way. It is another reason why I believe so strongly in learning to disagree with more love and less personal polarization/ judgmental response. I think we *all* need to try to learn not to project more on each other, for instance. I think we could all try to see if we can muster up a little more respect as concerns each others sincerity. Now I know that I am newer here, and that some of you have old relationships, and that makes for certain kinds of problems. I don't want to appear oblivious to this. But, as humans trying to learn to get along together, it is only reasonable to expect these kinds of problems. We are *not* merely thinking machines, however machinelike certain aspects are.

 And some of us do not have any grasp of the purpose of a paragraph break!

 David, some of the quotes you used concerning the Spirit of Truth are exactly the quotes I would use. Most specifically: the one about the crossroads. I find it confusing that you first argue that we must ascertain a certain factual element about the TM (I understand that on its own) and then argue that the Spirit of Truth is only for spiritual help and cannot assist us in assessing the TM overall. To my mind, either these elements are interwoven and interdependent, in which case the Spirit will of course help us, or they are not, in which case, there may be an interpretation problem. Granted, it may be more subtle and sophisticated than that, but I do not in fact necessarily agree with your posited concept that all three elements must be proven as it were. If so, how can one be as the book says right as to the facts and wrong as to the truth? For me to take your argument seriously, you must first prove to me that your assertions about the method of assessment for something like the TM is itself true. At this point, I don't buy it. I might buy it, however, with more data and explication. It is interesting, and has elements that appeal strongly to my own grasp of the truth. Also remember the man who loves his wife but cannot pass a test on love. I love the TM even though I could not pass perhaps *your* test on it. Fortunately, I am not obliged to pass anyone's test on it, but must search my own conscience and soul, which I continually, continually do. This experience on Urantial has certainly strengthened me and made me a more careful thinker and a more dedicated human being. It is one reason I prize my participation here and that of all of the rest of you. And in some ways, David, you have been one who has been the most helpful to me in this particular manner, for I must always think ever more carefully about my responses on a number of levels. For me that has been a growth opportunity, and I thank you. I believe that you are sincere. I think you believe that I am sincere. We may sometimes believe that the other is sincerely mistaken, but I hope that we are nonetheless forging a certain respect and caring for each other than can transcend our differences.

 This was much longer than I intended; the tape may not go out now until Friday's mail. Even so, I have not answered one tenth of what I wished or you asked. It will have to do for the moment, however.

 Love to *all* of you in this crazy, wonderful place!

 

22 Jul 1993     Dennis Shields      correcting time part 1

Subject: correcting time part 1

 Aloha this just in from woods cross I must go to Waimea now to get a Marshall amp repaired it will be several hours before I post part 2

 David K. I will address your last post soon but just a word before I go.

 I am neutral re:TM my statements are observations.

 You claim a difference between the experience of the Contact Commisioners and the experience of TMers based on your interviews with Contact Commisioners Yet in Birth of a Revelation similar to TM experiences are described as being part of the Contact Commisioners experience.

 Whos interview of these now graduated individuals is more accurate yours or Marks?

 How are we to tell who is more accurate?

 The Correcting Time

 Experiences of Some of Those Involved

 During the last two years, a channeling phenomenon has begun progressing throughout the Urantia Book readership. Various celestial beings have been making contact and talking through various contact persons to mortals. It started here in the Salt Lake City area in February, 1991; a teacher named Ham started teaching on a weekly basis. He claims to be an ascending son on a mission from Edentia to start the Correction Time. At first it was just a local Utah occurrence that was disregarded by most people. We made tapes of these teachings from teacher Ham available to anyone requesting them and answered any inquires from those desiring more information. Now there are many teachers actively conducting meetings with groups of people around the United States and overseas (55 at last count, with new groups continuously coming on-line or requesting a teacher). The phenomenon is not just foolishness coming out of Utah from a few egotistical, self-serving, or glory-seeking individuals, but has emerged from a general spectrum of Urantia Book readers and others from many different backgrounds and geographic locations. Even now there are formal critiques written of this channeling experience.

 We who have been involved from the start would like to produce a written paper of our experiences with this mode of communication to share with anyone interested in this development. It is our desire to reach everyone in the Urantia readership community and encourage them to take a look at these proceedings and to determine on their own if such a path to God is of interest to them. There are some individuals who have sent written reports to the readership in which they claim that this mission is false so as to steer people away from it. This they are entitled to do, and no judgment is here passed. However, many readers, seeing only their works, draw a conclusion without any first hand knowledge of the teaching mission, its messages, lessons, or the experiences of those involved. Since there has been no written report describing the mission or, more importantly, the spiritual growth and experiences of those who accept this mission as a revelation, we seek to fill this need out of love for all Urantians, and in accordance with the instructions of our teachers.

 With spiritual experiences, the proof is in the fruits produced. One must look at the meanings and values of one's experiences to determine the level of divinity expressed. To see how the teaching ministry has effected changes in those individuals involved or touched by it, we must study the changes manifested in these people and/or the changes in ourselves. If the experience brings them closer to God, fills their life with true happiness, joy, and a better insight into the meanings and values of the spiritual world; promotes a deeper understanding of reality and what is important; and makes us more tolerant, loving, and less judgmental toward our fellows, then the experience is surely good and reflects divine guidance. We have seen the teaching ministry affect people from many backgrounds, and indeed it has brought these higher standards of living to them, including, in some cases, a fuller meaning to the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. The urge to serve our brothers has been fulfilled by our obligation to bring forth the Father's love and goodness to others. We welcome your inquiries to talk to us, to watch us, to come visit us, to see what kinds of spiritual fruits have been produced in us by the Teacher Corp of Machiventa. Then you will know.

 If this mission is for you, you are welcome to join and participate. If it is not, you will at least have a first hand experience, and some understanding of this "channeling mission" which is spreading across the Urantia movement. There are many paths to God. Only you can determine which path is for you. We just ask you to be open minded, to read some of the transmissions and lessons from the teacher corp, to visit a channeling meeting, to talk and visit with people involved. Do not allow others to make this choice for you. As one of the leading rabbis of the Sadducees, Gamaliel stated in regard to the early Christian teachings [UB 2067;6], "Refrain from these men and let them alone, for if this counsel or this work is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them, lest haply you be found even to be fighting against God. " Read everything you can, even the critiques of the mission. Truth must stand, and can be subjected to criticism and interpretation [UB 69;5, 1088;9]. We only ask that you not make up your mind totally on hearsay or works criticizing the mission. Don't be afraid to read about or hear the mission teachings either directly or by tapes and transcripts.

 The teaching mission has been established here on Urantia to teach the extended gospel of Jesus, as we know from the Urantia Book, to the entire planet. Its message is simple, the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.

 We who believe in the Urantia Book want newcomers to look at the book directly in deciding if it is for them, not to rely on book reports, journalists, or even our own explanations of the book. We encourage first hand experience. We would like to go a step further: even if you do not accept that supernal beings are communicating to us, at least keep your mind open and continue to look every once in a while at the messages and lessons coming from the teachers. Please do not fully and finally close the door. In our experience, there have been some who do not accept the teachers as celestial beings, but who do state that the lessons are many times very spiritual. Freely take of these lessons and utilize them in your lives, for that is the main message of the Urantia Book; to search for truth wherever it comes from, and to adjust our lives to becoming more Godlike, and to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth.

 Faith: We believe that accepting the teaching mission as part of the divine plan must be based on faith and faith alone, at least at first. One cannot prove the existence of God; it must be grasped by faith. From trying to expose the Urantia Book to others over the years, we know that you have probably experienced all sorts of reasons of why the book is false, or is the work of the devil. Acceptance of the book is up to the reader. One cannot force the belief of the book on anyone. We can present the material, and be available to answer questions and help in directing one through it. The reader must accept it on his own. If he is truly searching, he may look into what the book has to offer. It would be wise for each of us to look back on how we accepted the Urantia Book. The Indwelling Monitor and the Spirit of Truth will help direct one in this task, but human will is supreme. If an individual is content with where he is in his beliefs and experiences, he will not consider the book. Even the Father himself does not force any of His children to go against their own will, or require an individual to do anything which would be uncomfortable. And so it is with this teaching mission. The individual is alone with just his Monitor and the Spirit of Truth to help him decide. True he must have the book or, in the case of the teaching mission, some information or lessons from it. This is what we wish to do; to provide seekers with relevant material of the correcting time teaching mission. Modern man has little time to read and absorb all the religionist information around him. We here in Utah are continuously being bombarded by various religionist missionaries with their literature, books and paths to God. They believe that they are serving God, and they are. One does not have the time to investigate fully all this literature. Why should you the reader take the time and investigate the correction time literature? At first it was a small, insignificant effort to which only a few people responded. Now it has grown, and hundreds of Urantia Book readers have spent some time in studying the teaching mission and have accepted the mission as stated. You might say that enough Urantia Book readers have embraced this mission to insure that it would not be a waste of time for you to look at the mission seriously. Note, however, that sheer numbers of acceptances by Urantia Book readers do not imply it is correct or true. Indeed many have rejected it. Do not be afraid. Have no fears that if you start to read transcripts, hear tapes or attend some transmitting meetings that you will be sucked into it, programmed, or embracing evil. We suggest that you ask the Father in prayer to protect you, to allow only righteous beings to speak to you. Many of us do just that. You know from the Urantia Book that Caligastia or any rebel entity cannot enter the normal mind without willing them in directly [UB 610;3]. Calling out to our Father for only righteous and loyal spiritual helpers to instruct or counsel you should take this fear out of you. It does take a time commitment. We and others welcome you to take the time, and will gladly assist in supplying you with material and our own personal experiences.

 Adjudication of the Lucifer Rebellion: We know from the Urantia Book that the adjudication of the rebellion was started sometime before the 1930's [UB 610;1, 611;3]. Sometime this adjudication must be completed, and we ask the reader to think of various options that the celestial governments may act on after this obstacle to our normal evolutionary progress is removed. Surely the planet would be restored to the normal communication circuitry which was severed at the outbreak of rebellion [UB 529;3]. How much of a delay and how long would it take to reestablish the circuitry so that Urantia could once again experience communications with neighboring worlds and the headquarters planets? Would celestial beings be able to communicate with us? which orders? what techniques? Would the final adjudication result in a new dispensation with the appearance of either a Magisterial or Trinity Teacher Son? Is the Urantia Book to be the general (fifth) revelation to this planet during and after the adjudication? or is the Urantia Book just the first part of an epochal revelation? It would be wise, and a learning experience, to think of the various options open to Deity to act upon after final termination of the rebellion, in order to prepare oneself to recognize any developments along these lines. The Monitor and Spirit of Truth would help one in such thinking; the search for God is never a waste of time. During the previous and greatest revelation, most people failed to recognize the divine mission of our Creator Son. One must be aware that just because some people declare such an epochal revelation does not mean it is true. There are many false prophets. But one should look into and study any such claims if one is to access the largeness, consistency and reasonableness of such a movement, especially when such claims are coming through a path close to your own belief systems. We believe that the teaching mission has progressed to the point where hundreds of Urantia Book readers in many different areas of the country are receiving similar information of a spiritual nature that is consistent and reasonable enough to encourage each reader to spend some time and determine for him or herself if this teaching mission is the second part of the fifth epochal revelation. The Urantia Book discusses in full [UB 615-618] the reasons for allowing the rebellion to run for 200,000 years, and that nothing can happen until the adjudication is finally over [UB 610;7]. Go into yourself, seek your inner guidance to determine if the rebellion has been finally adjudicated, if the Father and Michael have answered all our prayers, given the mandate to end our suffering on Urantia, and will advance the planet to the first stages of light and life.

 The teaching ministry has stated that the Lucifer Rebellion was fully adjudicated by the Ancients of Days in 1984-85, that Lucifer, Satan, Caligastia and Daligastia did not repent, and that they are no longer--extinction of personality. The present 1991 mission is an emergency mission, (just like Machiventa's mission 4000 years ago), in which Machiventa Melchizedek was installed as acting Planetary Prince (he was offered Planetary Prince by Michael but refused it) and brought with him 100 teachers from Jerusem and Edentia to teach the extended gospel to Urantians, and to uplift the entire planet so that a Trinity Teacher Son could come to initiate a new dispensation and lead the planet to settled status of light and life. Prince Machiventa and his teachers are invisible but can make contact with certain mortals with the help of Life Carriers, midwayers, power directors, etc. so that they can communicate (teach) by placing words or thoughts into the mind of willing mortal transmitters/receivers (TR) from which they speak to the mortals assembled. The TRs are conscious when this communication is going on and each one's experiences are a little different from the others. Later the teaching mission was augmented by Michael himself taking the helm, and his bringing many beings, power and much love to Urantia. Our understanding is that the initial mission was proceeding too slowly.

 Correcting Time Mission: The mission is called the Correcting Time and teachers are available for any group or person requesting one. The main mission of the correcting time is to spiritually uplift the planet as well as to correct the political, environmental, social and technological aspects of the world. Urantia is Michael's planet, and he desires that it advance spiritually and be an example to all Nebadon. The planet is ripe for an unprecedented spiritual advancement, and it depends only on us. Our wills are supreme, but many beings are here to help us spread the extended gospel and to show the Father's love by direct example of living. The teacher corp desires to first reach all the readership of the Urantia Book, and then from this base of strong believership to begin teaching the rest of humanity. First the major efforts will be focused here in the United States, since the book has a strong foothold here, then it will spread to the rest of the world.

 We know from the spirit of the Urantia Book teachings that whenever the universe governments desire to make a revelation, it is possible to directly contact and coordinate humans to accomplish such presentations, subject to human will. All revelations necessitate some form of communication between celestial beings and mortals. Examples are the gathering together of the one hundred human subjects to assist the Prince's corporeal staff [UB 742;8]. "They were assembled from widely separated places by coordinated Thought Adjuster direction and seraphic guidance at the threshold of the planetary headquarters." Such mortals indeed communicated with celestial beings and changed their lives completely to perform a mission asked of them. The mortals involved with the transmission of the Urantia Book are another example. Some Urantians were fortunate to be able to communicate with celestial beings when they were incarnated in the flesh; for example, those that knew the Prince's corporeal staff, Adam and Eve, Machiventa and the Master. On normal worlds, many celestial beings live on the world in the flesh, and mortals can freely go visit them in person at their centers to personally communicate face to face. These teachers are always present; the visible Prince's staff (ascending sons returned to mortal worlds as teachers [UB 742;5] ) stays on for thousands of years until the arrival of the Material Son and Daughter [UB 744;4], which in turn are visibly present on the planet until long settled in light and life [UB 584;3]. Imagine how life would be if we or our leaders could go to such a center on earth and be taught directly by celestial beings. Remember that these visible teachers would have access to many orders of beings on high as well as the universe broadcast circuits to obtain knowledge and counseling. Our only limitation would be our own. Thus, in all the universes, we Urantians are one of the few exceptions of not having celestial beings available for counsel and instructions, due to our isolation. It would not be hard to conjecture that some kind of direct communication would be possible after restoration of the planet to normalcy after final adjudication of the rebellion. Is this teaching mission the technique which Deity is utilizing to restore and advance the planet? You and only you must determine that, and it must come from the heart. You know because you know. Can celestial beings communicate directly? Can celestial beings, including ascending sons from on high come to Urantia and communicate with mortals? First of all we know that the Father himself is at one and the same time farthest removed from, and most intimately associated with, his planetary mortal sons [UB 1176;1]. He can speak directly and immediately with you when you attain the first psychic circle [UB 1210;7]. Even though in our original Urantia Book study group before teacher Ham, only one person could hear her Thought Adjuster consciously and directly. We have seen many in our Ham teacher group advance to be able to hear the Father. Some can have a two way conversation at any time on demand. Such advancement in these mortals resulted, we suspect, from spending much more of their time trying to grow spiritually. They are determined to implement the teachings in the Urantia Book in their everyday living. They actively seek the Father's will and strive to live it. Of course one could evolve along these lines with just the Urantia Book, but we believe that this spiritual growth resulted from the lessons and involvement with the teaching mission. One seems to understand the gospel intellectually from reading the Urantia Book, but to really know it spiritually, to feel it in their souls, to actively desire it, results from participating in the teaching mission, and be surrounded by like individuals all attempting and actually growing spiritually. It is hard to communicate this feeling to the unbeliever or the uninformed, but those who do, know what we are talking about. It seems similar to the Urantia Book discussion on page 1125;1 in which one is trying to describe their belief in God, "how do you know that I do not know?" and page 1127;1 "I know what I have experienced because I am a son of I AM." "To all of your fellows who have had a similar experience, no argument about the personality or reality of God is necessary, while to all other men who are not thus sure of God no possible argument could ever be truly convincing" [UB1107;7]. Of course, they also have help from the unseen spiritual helpers. When one seeks the Father, prays for guidance, shows love to his fellows and eagerly devotes himself to service of his fellows, the Father will draw closer, the seraphim will cause events in your life to occur to force you to make the hard decisions necessary for attainment of the circles. Such a process is nonlinear; the more you seek the Father and want to grow spiritually, the more you do. Each new experience or awareness leads to further understanding and development. Yes, the Father does actively assist and help his children. We also know from the Urantia Book that Michael's Spirit of Truth is universal and guides one in searching for truth. However, this is more circuit-like than personal. We also have the local universe Mother Spirit to guide us. Since we have the Father, Son and Spirit with us, why can't we communicate with other celestial beings? We just must have faith and try.

 Can mortal man hear from others? The mind-energy manipulators discussed on page 504;8 state that "these are the experts of intercommunication between morontia and other types of intelligent beings. This form of communication between mortals is practically nonexistent on Urantia." This statement implies that some mortals can communicate, and did so in the past. Can larger numbers of mortals with this capacity be present after the Urantia Book revelation? On pages 864-865 we are told that some midwayer groups are "of great assistance on an evolutionary world in the service of quick and reliable personal communication." Continuing to quote the Urantia Book "Contact personalities. In the contact made with mortal beings of the material worlds, such as with the subject through whom these communications were transmitted, the midway creatures are always employed." As this statement is written, it is not limited to just the transmission of the Urantia Book, as reference is made to mortal beings in general. It is not qualified by requiring the contact personalities to be unconscious. Further down the page [UB 865;4] we note that "it is exceedingly difficult for primary midwayers to make direct contact with material agencies." However [UB 865;4] "the secondary creatures are almost exclusively attached to the ministry of the material beings of the realm." Continuing on this page [UB 865;7] it is stated that "the midway creatures are not involved in the sordid performances taking place under the general designation of 'spiritualism'." They "are not connected with the phenomena of so-called 'mediumship'." How do we completely understand this page (865) in the Urantia Book? Much has to do with the qualifier "sordid." Phenomena under such names as channeling, spiritualism, mediumship have been going on in this world for centuries. The definition of the adjective "sordid" means dirty, filthy, marked by baseness or grossness. Thus the Urantia Book states that any meaningless or ugly experience or performance of unknown origin, outside of known natural phenomena is not caused by midway creatures, all of who are of honorable standing. Who is doing such sordid performances? is it a being? If so, a loyal being trying to promote the divine plan in the best ways possible to those mortals involved? Or are they rebel entities attempting to spread confusion? an inexperienced TR? Are such phenomena strictly a psychological experience occurring in the subconscious mind? We cannot tell, but given any performance, we humans should be able to tell whether the event is sordid or not via the Spirit of Truth. The lessons we receive from our teachers through the TR's are beautiful and spiritual, not sordid.

 Some members of the reserve corps of destiny are contact personalities and are conscious of their preparation for action [UB 1257;5]. The teaching mission has stated that the number of persons in the reserve corps of destiny has been steadily increasing, including most of us who have accepted this teaching ministry. Seraphim with the assistance of the midway creatures and the physical controllers can make actual contact with mankind, but such occurrences are very unusual [UB 1246;5]. Ardnon and his associates were contacted for the announcement of the forthcoming bestowal of Michael [UB ~1317;3]. Communications with the System Sovereign and with the Most Highs are routinely performed in the morontia temples when settled in ages of light and life [UB 622;4]. Some humans have had the opportunities to observe seraphim beings prepared for transport service [UB 438;5]. The universe representative of the Infinite Spirit spoke through Father Melchizedek on the mount of transfiguration [UB 1755;3]. Just recently the archangels' circuit has functioned on Urantia [UB 1191;1]. The Paradise Trinity concept was revealed to a few individual since the times of Jesus [UB 1145;2]. Machiventa collaborated with the many prophets and seers between his incarnation and the Master's [UB 1024;7].

22 Jul 1993     Dan Massey      Finding my voice to talk about

Subject: Finding my voice to talk about myself and his opinions...

 Friends,

 Although I have said very little on urantial during the past couple of months, I have been following the discussions with a curious mixture of interest and boredom. With all due respect to Leo and David, and others, I was finding the rising tide of contention about the validity or invalidity of the TM relatively uninteresting. I suppose this is because I doubt anyone's ability to PROVE his/her position on the matter, and it seemed to be trending in that direction. Perhaps we are now back on less argumentative footing (although I stand guilty of having sent a few "Yea! Yea! Go, David, Go!" messages).

 In any case, the recent exchange about David's specific questions has seemed to turn down the heat and turn up the light a bit, thus tempting me to emerge from my shell and go at it again...

 My view of all these goings-on is more or less stuck at the level of personal experience, subjective impressions, and thoughts on its meaning for the "movement"--both organized and disorganized.

 I originally became interested in the Urantia Book because it portrayed a moral and ethical universe that was consistent with my own ideals and with the ideals of people whose behavior I found attractive, whether overtly religious or not. I was impressed that it dismissed (through analysis and classification) almost everything that passes for "religion" in our society (i.e., the mythical and the liturgical, as well as the authoritative), while introducing a new (to me) ideal of "religion" and its associated ideals (truth, beauty, goodness, love) that resonated with my own deep feelings of reality (although not necessarily with my behavior at the time).

 The fact that the text of the Book may have been "channeled" in some sense did not strike me as particularly important. After all, it had to come from somewhere and, if the Book's view of reality were correct (as it felt to me), any written text would be the product of the interaction of human minds with spiritual indwellings and thus "channeled" in the broadest sense of the term.

 What impressed me, though, was the unusual richness and diversity of concept in the Book--particularly in the way in which it gave new and distinctly clarifying meanings to old, confused, and outworn words like faith and belief and love and service and harmony and unity, etc. As I understood what the Book had to say, my understanding of reality grew, largely through the redefinition and correction of misconceptions about the meaning of words in everyday use. I do not recall what human source provided the statement "Love is the desire to do good to others"; however, this is not important because, in the Book, this statement is placed in a larger context which endows it with new meaning by association with related concepts and enables these meanings to be more fully appreciated.

 Eventually, by reading the Book, understanding what it had to say about reality and personal spiritual experience, and putting this into practice, I came to enjoy more communion with the spiritual influences and individualities which are part of my life experience. I found that I could live my life in the presence of God and that I could intentionally extend this blessing to others, although I could not predict or be responsible for their individual reactions. I have learned much (though hardly enough) about working spiritual realities over my almost 20 years association with the Book, but much of this is not actually written down, in so many words, in the text of the Book. Things I can point to explicitly that have the most profound relevance to my own inner life experience are often perceived as irrelevant or unimportant by other readers of the Book. For me, the detailed examination of the text of the Book as a source of instruction and guidance has gradually become less important than understanding the Spirit. At the same time, the text remains a rewarding source of inspiration and occasional new insights discovered among the familiar words.

 Into this situation of rich and varied life experience the TM now intrudes. I can see much that is true and much else that is very soothing in the records of the TRs. On the other hand, I can also find the projections of altogether human desires and emotions surfacing from time to time in the (unedited) material. I do not, however, find things that either expand the scope of the Book or treat subjects common to the Book in at all the same degree of depth and subtlety as the text of the Book. The very best TM material strikes me as quite shallow and stream-of-consciousness stuff by comparison with the text of the Book. The very best material is, to me, not distinguishable from thousands of other pages of channeled material from other sources, except that it continues to focus on the Urantia Book, as opposed to other external realities.

 At the same time, I have taken the trouble to learn the history of channeling as a mechanism of mystical expression. In particular, I know that history shows a long tradition of revelatory shamanism in human society, that the content of such revelations has varied widely in quality, accuracy, and usefulness, and that the explosive growth in interest in these phenomena is traceable largely to the recent repopularization of the works of a few prominent promoters from the 19th century, most notably H.P. Blavatsky. I know from history that HPB virtually single-handedly defined the notion of "channeling" as it is practiced today and that she did this to provide an authoritative mystical-magical backdrop to support the promulgation of her spiritual/political agenda for the Indian subcontinent (and elsewhere). In this, she followed in the steps of other mountebank Freemasons, like Cagliostro, who used mummery to attract an audience to profound truths of divine love and human brotherhood during the long spiritual night of "Christian" Europe.

 Now Thea (or was it LinEL?) tells me that I should not expect the TM to be textually or doctrinally accurate, but that it is intended to provide guidance to the individual and to the intimate social group in finding the stillness, seeking God's will, learning to live a spirit-led life, etc. As far as I am concerned, that is OK, if it works for the people being TM-ed. And that is basically their business to determine for themselves. But I ask myself, if that's it, then what's the big deal? I've been there myself, I've had a life full of autorevelation, I've learned how to learn from the spirit, and I've helped others deal with these same things, but I didn't go into a trance to do it. I consider myself blessed that my spiritual-psychic digestion seems to work internally, rather than through external rumination on the unconscious products of an unconscious contact. That does not mean the TR process is flawed, although it does (to me) bear a suspicious external resemblance to the fashions invented by HPB so many years ago in service to her "Secret Chiefs" who we now know to have been real, flesh-and-blood human beings with real (wonderfully humane and spritual) political agendas to promote.

 So to me the TM seems to have taken its form from a documented, demonstrable pseudo-psychic fiction; although its content, for the individual, may be altogether praiseworthy and its asserted purpose may be consistent with stages in my own inner spiritual development. I do not understand why things which are intensely personal and subjective need to be externalized to be understood and acted on by TRs and I do not see how the TM followers can hope to receive more useful information and insights from the TR than is available to them directly from their TA (Thought Adjuster). Still, if that's what does the trick for you, I'll be happy to say it's OK and I don't have to know WHY. I've never understood or sympathized with the human enthusiasm for priests and preachers anyway... (But I'm a dogmatic individualist.)

 Now we come to the crux of the problem, however. The TM claims to be an extension of the FIFTH EPOCHAL REVELATION, yet it offers nothing to expand the content of the Urantia Book and is fairly obviously derivative, when accurate. The claim (as related to factual, textual, philosophic content) is patently unsupportable and false. On the other hand, Thea has presented the TM as a process related to the fifth epochal revelation as a continuation of mission, in terms of broadening human intercourse with spiritual realities, which steers things away from issues of detailed accuracy. Does this make the claim of the TM to extend the 5thER tolerable? I do not know. It does put the matter on, for me, different footing. I suppose time will tell, as Gamaliel said...

 In the meantime, though, I wonder if any other TRs would agree with Thea's explanation of the 5thER relationship. More to the point, I still wonder why, if the TM is really what Thea says it is, all this exteriorized process is necessary, since a lot of people seem to have approximated the same goals with much less fanfare and publicity.

 Finally, I note a curious TM paradox. Perhaps someone will be able to resolve it. For some little time now I have been convinced personally that the Lucifer Rebellion had been adjudicated. I have also been convinced that the System Circuits had been reopened. I certainly could not prove these things, and discussed them (and related matters) with very few people. When the TM first burst on the scene, I found it interesting that these facts were included in the claims of the TRs concerning the antecedents of the phenomenon. It was equally interesting that the TRs never (to my knowledge) said WHEN these incredibly important events had occurred. It is as if you announced the birth of Jesus and neglected to mention August 21, 7 B.C. Now, you can tell me that the midwayers aren't aware of time the way humans are and had to look up Jesus' birthdate in Andrew's version of the Gospel, but I don't buy it. In fact, how can an outfit that can turn water into wine and raise Lazarus from the completely dead and half-rotten fail to get Melchizedek to the Holiday Inn on time? Give be a break...

 By repeatedly referring to Thea (and/or LinEL) I have not meant to pick on her (them?) in particular and apologize if it read that way.

22 Jul 1993     Thea Hardy       Re: Finding my voice to talk a

Subject: Re: Finding my voice to talk about myself and his opinions... In-Reply-To: [9307222231.AA13108@CSOS.ORST.EDU]

 Hi Dan,

 Listen, that was really a great post! I found your description of your experience in finding the book and the process you went through in relation to it really valuable and it resonated with much of my own process in that department (I got it in 1970). You presented your experience with effective clarity.

 I can tell you my own personal response about why the TM when it was already happening and we have our TAs available... I have struggled with my spiritual life, with some success, over the years, coming to a position like you expressed of realizing it is more the spirit than any other aspect that counts as far as the UB goes. But my experiences with study groups and all were not particularly successful in the last half of that decade. For some of us, certain aspects of the already present socialization of religion in the Fellowship in our particular regions, just did not work. In other words, I was able to develop alone, with a few others, and in other spiritually oriented groups, but not able to find a satisfactory group relating to the UB. Satisfactory for me would have been a focus on sharing personally about actually practicing the religion of Jesus. I know that this has happened many places in the country, but it did not happen for me. Now I have this wonderful group of people to be with who all are eager to share exactly this adventure. All in all, we talk much more about how to try to live our daily lives than we do about anything related to predictions, or the future of the TM. The teachers (whatever they may be to you) stress focussing on our daily lives, living each day loyally as a tadpole, so to speak. And I now have an opportunity to socialize my religion that I never had before. Many of you may not need this, or may have it in other forms. That is wonderful; I hope that many ways to socialize our UB experience become available. But now I have that fellowship, too, and it is wonderful. I have watched myself and some people, some of whom I have known over 20 years, over 14 years, over 10 years, grow in my group faster than I could have ever imagined in terms of spiritualizing their lives. I myself am much more loving and patient, seek my adjuster with much more regularity and eagerness. Feel more a part of the universe that we have all come to understand more fully through the book. For me, this is really why I am part of the TM. If I have mistaken the scaffolding for the literal, so be it. I think we will all do this a time or two in our universe careers. In fact, I think we must. I am trying to dedicate myself to the pursuit of Truth, Beauty and Goodness to the best of my ability in order to love the Father more and my brothers and sisters. And that is growing. That is why I am part of this mission.

 I found it interesting that you felt that the adjudication had proceeded. Material ULed by Dennis from the Woods Cross group gives the date 1984-85 which you will already have in hand by now. I initially protested against this concept and just about every other in the TM. I was pretty irate about the whole idea (I feel I should reiterate this for those who are new here) and highly skeptical over all. But I do not require that truth go beyond the UB for it to be truth. There is also a breadth to truth. By that, I mean that as I hear different expressions of what is essentially the same truth, I find my concept grasp laterally expanded. I appreciate this expansion as well as what I would call vertical expansion. The lateral expansion helps me to increasingly love brothers and sisters who share the same basic truths but express it in different ways. There is a lot of this in the TM. I do not look to it as an extension of the kind of revelatory material that is in the book, but as an extension of the socialization, and by not means the only one.

 I am waxing forth again, alas. It is one of those days. Thank you again for your message, Dan, and I did not feel picked on. Don't hesitate to use my words or those of LinEL as examples for your arguments; you were entirely fair in your use of them as illustrative material. I don't feel like you are suggesting that I have *too* many holes in my head for participating in the TM! ;->

 Nice to have you posting here again and I particularly appreciated the personal tone of your sharing. It helped me get to know you and your position better.

22 Jul 1993     Dennis Shields      Correction time part 2

Subject: Correction time part 2

 We know that when a Planetary Prince comes to a world, he usually takes with him a group of ascending mortals from the system capital to be the connecting link between the invisible prince and the mortals [UB 574;4]. "The sincere religionist is conscious of universe citizenship and is aware of making contact with sources of superhuman power" [UB 1100;6]. On page 570, in discussing various modified orders of ascension, in which some survivors skip the mansion worlds and awaken either on the system, constellation or universe level, we note that "before any of these groups may go forward, they must journey back as instructors to the worlds they missed, gaining many experiences as teachers in those realms which they passed by as students." "Beyond the third stage of light and life, all ascenders are destined to receive some sort of transient assignment on a planet passing through the earlier stages of evolution" [UB 625;11]. Many of the teachers of the teaching ministry are from advanced planets settled in light and life. Throughout the entire ascending career, all beings function as students and teachers [UB 339;7]; the universe is one vast school [UB 412;3, 558;2].

 By making references to various passages of the Urantia Book on the possibilities of mortals making direct communication with celestial beings, we are not trying to prove that the teaching mission is real, but rather to guide the reader in his studies of the book to ascertain what does the Urantia Book teach of this phenomenon. The readers must determine by themselves from such readings, or direct experience with the teachers, if such communication is possible. "Remember that the order of progressive evolution is subjected to sudden and unexpected periodical changes in both the material and the spiritual worlds" [UB 1863;12]. The Master on Mount Olivet, said: "you should be wise regarding the ripening of an age; you should be alert to discern the signs of the times" [UB 1915;3]. Revelation will continue throughout the ages [UB 1599;1]. The truth can best be criticized by revelation [UB 1138;7]. In summary, the Master taught: "Divine truth must not be discounted because the channel of its bestowal is apparently human" [UB 1733;1]. Do the teachers support the Urantia Book? The teachers are all coordinated and teach a similar message. The message is essentially the Urantia Book. They define the fifth epochal revelation to be in two parts; first the Urantia Book revelation in written form, followed years later by direct contact with celestial beings on a large scale--the teacher corp. The only difference between the information in the Urantia Book and what they have been teaching is that the Lucifer Rebellion has been fully adjudicated (1984-1985), and the system circuits are to be reopened, thus ending the spiritual isolation of Urantia, and completing reconnection to the constellation circuits allowing the normal interplanetary communication as well as easy, direct communication between mortals and higher beings. The only other change in the Urantia Book teachings is that they are revealing our spiritual names to us now, rather than as stated in the Urantia Book [538;3, 1188;6] that we are not conscience of our names until after fusion. How big a deal is this change in names? If one was misleading us, of all the concepts and ideas of the Urantia Book, why would they only change this insignificant concept, accepting all the others? Indeed, some teacher groups had trouble with this, and as a result, no names were given, while we at Salt Lake City readily accepted these new names. Various critics always point out that these names, being given before fusion violate the Urantia Book and cannot be true. What names are more spiritual than other names? Abraham changed his name from Abram [UB 1021;2], Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter [UB 1525;1]. The celestial beings know us by our spiritual names, and all records are based on these names, so it is not too surprising that since they are actively talking to us in a two-way mode, it is easier to utilize our real names. Some mortals heard their names first by hearing the teacher refer to them using their spiritual names. Did the teacher slip and forget to translate to their given earth name? It does help with uniqueness when we have three John's in our group of 40. If you have problems with these names, forget them. They are not important to the teaching and messages received.

 As with the rebellion being terminated, it has to happen sometime. Usually universal happenings are not revealed until they occur. One exception to this was Van's teaching of the coming of a Material Son, but this was based on the tradition that he was aware of from hailing from Jerusem [UB 822;6-7]. And even Van had trouble with the exact timing of Adam's' arrival which caused much trouble and disappointment [UB824;5]. No one knew of Machiventa's coming as attested by the astonishment of Amdon [UB 1015;2-3] when Machiventa entered his tent. Likewise, the Master's coming was unannounced until the communication of celestial beings to Mary and Elizabeth [UB 1345;4 1346;5]. Even traditional happenings in the universe do not always occur as is witnessed by the coming of our Planetary Prince almost half a million years after the appearance of human will, rather than concurrently [UB 741;1], or the Sangik races all occurring at once and in the same family, and the appearance of the Andonic race prior to the colored races [UB 735;7]. No one had pre-knowledge of the coming of the Urantia Papers; it just happened. Only a few were called to help in their transmissions, and even today, many years after their publication, only a few humans know of their existence, much less accept them as a divine revelation. The Urantia Book talks about Machiventa moving his headquarters to Urantia [UB 1025;1-2, 1251;2-3]. Some supernals look for Melchizedeks' appearance any day or hour [UB 1251;4]. Michael has promised to return. When will the next son come? will he be a Magisterial or Trinity Teacher Son? Will we all know by general announcement? If so, in what form of communication? In questions like this, we do not come from fear in the possibilities of missing some planetary event, but rather remind ourselves of the story of Matadormus, the rich man seeking ordination. He failed at first to take heed of the Master's instructions, but did later and so deprived himself of that intimate planetary event [UB 1801-1803]. Do not conclude that the times of revelation (God communion) have either occurred in the past or in times to come, and to someone other than yourself. Yes, the teacher corp supports and promotes the Urantia Book; indeed it is the basis of the teachings. Even though most of the groups with teachers are Urantia Book study groups, many people not familiar with the book have been drawn to the channeling meetings. Many of their questions are very basic to readers, and the celestial teachers tell them to consult the book or have readers more familiar with the book help them understand the concepts or guide them in the book in search of such understandings. The Urantia Book states [UB 1062;1, 1048;7~ that a religion cannot be so complicated that only philosophers can understand it. Have you ever had trouble in handing out the Urantia Book which comprises some 2100 pages of "heavy reading?" Most people do not like to read. In fact 13% of Americans can not read at all, to say nothing about the rest of the world. Most of us who read the Urantia Book love to read and have spent considerable time in learning its truths. Are we to become teachers of this wealth of knowledge? This is precisely what the teacher corp has in mind. They desire us to learn and to teach others by talking mostly one-on one. By living these truths, we become lights which will attract the interests of others when they sense that we have something that they desire. Their Thought Adjuster will help them notice such truths, goodness and beauty. At first we can share our interpretations of higher reality, followed by tapes or transcripts of lessons from Machiventa's teacher corp. If such persons are interested and receptive to further truths, then one can finally expose them to the Urantia Book. Teacher Ham has stated that he would rather have it the other way, the book first followed by his lessons. But the Urantia Book contains so much information, and is so complicated, that it brings confusion for many individuals. Many people in our teacher group have not been readers of the Urantia Book, but believed in the teachers, continued to come to hear their lessons, and eventually started to read the book. Some, because of educational limitations, have trouble reading the book but have progressed spiritually by listening and studying the teacher lessons. The Urantia Book is the bedrock of the teaching ministry. Do not fear that the teachers will take you away from the book; rather you will find yourself reading it more than ever before! Many of us have been seekers in the past, unhappy with traditional religion with its spiritual boundaries. With prayer and seeking, we have been lead to the Urantia Book. We believe that similar processes will occur with others so that they will be attracted to this Uplift mission. The opening of the planet circuits will allow increased awareness for all, and many people will be responding to this increased spiritual calling and will begin to seek for higher understanding. We who are knowledgeable of the Urantia Book are being called to help guide these multitudes. Are we establishing a priesthood in the Urantia movement? No, we have no plans nor have we been taught anything along the lines of an organization or church to be created. We request no money, we seek no power. We utilize our spiritual names (if you don't accept that, then code names or nicknames) so as not to draw attention to ourselves for purposes of personal aggrandizement. The teachers have stressed that they, like Michael and the Father, are no respecters of persons, loving all equally. We know from the Urantia Book that the kingdom of heaven will eventually be established on earth. Read the last paragraph on page 1866. Reflect also on the statement [UB 1363;1]: "nothing good ever comes out of Nazareth"; Machiventa, Christ Michael and the Urantia Papers did not come through any established power centers. On page 1866;2 it states: "Sooner or later another and greater John the Baptist is due to arrive proclaiming 'the kingdom of God is at hand'." Will this John come in our lifetime? is he part of this mission? Similarly [UB 500;6] states: "some day a real musician may appear on Urantia...one such human being could forever change the course of a whole nation." In humor some say this was Elvis, but great events are forecasted for the planet in the Urantia Book. Will we recognize and support them? or will we be indifferent and possibly resist them? Only in our hearts will we know. Quality of the lessons: Many readers were not impressed with the prose and the quality of the written messages coming from the teachers compared to the Urantia Book. Remember that the Urantia Book was commissioned and written by many intelligent beings. They wanted an authoritative work written in the best of our twentieth century English language to be made available. They chose the method of presentation and it is silly of us to argue whether it was channeled or not. The message is important, not the messenger. The teaching ministry has stated that the Urantia Book is very accurate and is the basis of their mission. They are promoting the Urantia Book. The written word is different from the spoken word. When normal prose is read as a speech, it doesn't have the same impact. Similarly, when a great speech is read from transcripts, it does not have the same effect as when heard from the orator. They are different mediums of communicating. Also remember that the celestial beings are not talking directly, but rather through a human medium. They are limited in their messages by the TR, and those of us who have transmitted know that it is difficult to do at times, and that it is often hard to differentiate our own thoughts from the supernals. Mistakes and errors are made. Spiritual messages come through readily; names are extremely hard and require much practice. Dates are almost impossible to obtain, as celestial beings measure things in terms of events not on our calendar. You may say that the lessons must be simple enough to be able to reach the various mortals gathered. They are given on various levels so that beginners and less spiritually advanced humans are able to obtain information from them as well as the more advanced. Later, after advancing spiritually, when one goes back and again listens or reads the same lessons, different meanings and understandings are found. The same is true with the Urantia Book; it is written at different levels and has protection built in. The book is well written, and is for anyone wanting a lengthy, proper, intellectual description of spiritual reality and the organization of the universes. With this basic background laid, the teachers can concentrate more on the individual group's spiritual needs, and help guide them in such group and individual understanding. We have use of both forms of communications to seek the truth. The Urantia Book states [UB 1208;5] that it would be "better to err in rejecting an Adjuster's expression through believing it to be a purely human experience than to blunder into exalting a reaction of the mortal mind to the sphere of divine dignity." This statement does not imply that one rejects the Thought Adjuster, that you can't trust them, nor state that all dreams are devoid of any spiritual content; only that one should look at each idea, expression and word and try to determine which have spiritual meaning. During such thinking, the Monitor will (mostly unconsciously) direct you through any truths contained. Always be ready for the next thought, dream or whatever form of communication one may be experiencing. Our celestial teachers always say that we must go inside of ourselves to determine whether each word and expression being channeled is true for us. Just pick up what you need, leave the rest. Each mortal picks up different information and not all ideas are accepted. One may think in terms of what percent of the information being channeled is correct or properly transmitted. The Spirit of Truth will help you in this seeking. We doubt that you will find it at zero percent.

 Transmission Errors: Transmission errors will occur as this form of communication is new to us and has to be developed by practice. Nearly all TR's in the beginning have difficulty in determining which messages are their own thoughts and which are those from the teachers. With practice, some TR's can minimize these errors in transmission, but not eliminate them completely. We have been instructed to test each word and expression to ascertain the truth contained by our own Spirit of Truth. Many errors will be corrected by subsequent messages by the same teacher and TR, or by other TR's and /or other teacher groups. Many times we request separate confirmations and usually we receive them. The teacher corp knew of the problem of different TR's getting different messages, and decided before the mission began to allow them to happen. They want mortals to develop faith, to develop our own abilities to determine what is right for us. Thinking through these misunderstandings or transmission errors has helped us tremendously. We do not judge nor make fun of the TR's, as they are trying their best to do the Father's will. Some teacher groups have fragmented over various issues of who is more accurate in transmitting.

 Is it Caligastia? The teaching mission stresses Michael's rule and the love of the Father. We are taught to love each other, to seek the stillness to commune with the Father, to seek the Spirit of Truth of Michael, that the Urantia Book is very accurate and a divine revelation. Why would Caligastia or any rebel entity teach this? Remember the Master's teaching--"a house divided must fall." Could Caligastia be up to his nefarious designs and actually be deceitful in preaching a loving Father and Michael to entrap us or program us, so that at a future date he would take off the mask and instruct us to worship him? Even if you don't believe in the Spirit of Truth protecting you, or that calling out to the Father in prayer will allow only righteous beings to communicate with you, you still have your mind to check each transmission to determine if it is Caligastia--the real Caligastia. If such were the case, we would recognize that it was Caligastia when the mask came off and would certainly not follow. If you do have this fear of being mislead, read all the transcripts and check for when Caligastia would take off his mask and proclaim his evil ways. You can then notify the teaching groups of such happenings if you feel they wouldn't be able to make this determination themselves. This teaching mission is not the work of Caligastia or any other rebel being. This mission cannot be false because it involves doing the Father's will. Doing the Fathers' will can never be false. "Neither Caligastia nor Daligastia was ever able to oppress mortals or to coerce any normal individual into doing anything against the human will" [UB 753;3]; "he has absolutely no power to enter the minds of men, neither can he draw near to their souls to tempt or corrupt them unless they really desire to be cursed with his wicked presence" [UB 610;3]. In the beginning you could be justified in questioning us here in Utah, but now 'many people from many places are communicating with us, and it would be hard to assume that they are all abnormal or Satanic. Do not be afraid of this devil if you chose the Father's will. ~

 Is it a psychological phenomenon? We are not psychologists, so the usual explanations of subconscious mind reactions, multiple personality or mass hysteria do not have much meaning to us. Those who do understand such phenomena state that they cannot explain the transmission/receiving we have been experiencing. These alternate explanations are harder to accept than direct communication with celestial beings. One must explain why so many people, some familiar with the Urantia Book, others not, from so many different backgrounds and locations, all channel similar information of a spiritual nature. Most TR's had no desire in doing such channeling. Even if it were a collective unconscious phenomenon, we feel it would still be worth it, as very lovely spiritual messages are given. Nearly all who have been involved have grown spiritually as never before.

 Why do we need teachers? What need do we have for teachers when we have the Urantia Book and our Thought Adjusters? True, we can find God by only responding to our prompts from the Monitor, but man is a social being; we need many contacts and interactions with others [UB 1092;3]. "Spiritual growth is naturally stimulated by intimate association with other religionists" [UB 1094;2]. The teachers are here to help us individually advance spiritually, as well as coordination of group activities for uplifting our fellows. The universe is one vast school. We have the opportunities now to become teachers and students in active mission callings. Think about it--how can we not desire higher celestial beings for both group and individual teachers? Many Urantians pay fees for seminars and workshops on all sorts of instructions for self improvement, finding oneself, etc. Here we have the opportunity for very knowledgeable teachers, and free for the asking. One only has to have faith. "It is not the mission of the Mystery Monitor to smooth your ruffled feelings or to minister to your injured pride" [UB 1192;2]; however, the teachers help when asked. Our highest calling in this existence is to make contact with the Thought Adjuster, but only a few are able to consciously hear His voice, so the teachers are here to help us in this limitation.

 If this teaching mission is an epochal planetary revelation, then all beings in the universe would love to serve. Deity would never leave out any order of beings; all have a chance to participate in some way according to their abilities. That includes us as well as midwayers and every other type of being in the universe. To come to this backward and confused planet, Michael's planet, to participate in a great spiritual awaking, this has attracted beings from all over to volunteer for service. Not many times do such opportunities exist in the universe. Some of our teachers come from worlds settled in light and life, in which everything is in harmony and most individuals do not need much in the way of service. They point out to us how we have so many opportunities for service to our fellows, to build and develop character, that we are truly blessed. Remember the seraphim are ministering to us whether we want them or not, even if we don't know of them or believe in them. We are very desirous of communicating with our universe brethren and to expand our understanding to higher levels of universe realities. The teachers help us and call us to action if we are willing.

 How to obtain a teacher: Teachers are available for any group or individual desirous of one. One just has to ask; prayers are always heard and the requests are sent to the appropriate authorities. Making contact with the teachers takes practice, and we would be happy to help anyone in making this contact. Each person's experiences are a little different, and we have heard of many approaches and techniques which we can explain to you to help you make contact. We plan to write future articles on this subject as we do not want this paper to be even more lengthy. Call or write us, or others. The more personal experiences of others you become familiar with, the better it helps in your own development.

 Conclusion: We can't prove the mission is true. We can only state that we fully believe in it, and can express our personal experiences with it. We are agondonters; this is a cherished status that only a very small number of beings possess. We can believe without seeing. The teaching mission wishes to preserve that status, and still allow us to grow. They want us to develop our faith. They will not show signs nor try to prove the mission is real. They do not even tell us what the Father's will is, but require us to go inside to determine it on our own. They do teach us how to draw closer to the Father, how to search and seek a personal relationship with Him. They want us to determine the will of God for ourselves by seeking His presence inside. Only the Father and Michael give unfailing guidance, and they are always ready to give it. We just have to develop this partnership and spend the time seeking. The Master gave signs by his various miracles, but they did not hold the believers in his fold. Direct appearances by celestial beings have not been made to us as it would end our growth as agondonters. We must rely on faith [UB 1 1 28;3].

 Look at it directly. You make the decision. Don't follow humans who you perceive as superior or spiritually more advanced. Make the decision yourself. Seek the highest source. Develop a personal relationship with Christ Michael and our Father. Honestly seek their help in determining if this new form of communication is for you. The main purpose of this correcting time mission is for mortals to look within and seek the guidance of the Father. Seeking the will of God is our highest motivation [UB 22;1].

 The book has been available for 38 years; many individuals gathered in many study groups are knowledgeable with the extended gospel of Michael. The celestial beings who brought forth the Urantia Book, as well as the Father, Christ Michael and Prince Machiventa would like all mankind to go the second mile as referenced on page [2084;5]. "Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings ... the spiritual renaissance must await the coming of these new teachers of Jesus's religion who will be exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men. And then will these spirit-born souls quickly supply the leadership and inspiration requisite for the social, moral, economic, and political reorganization of the world" [UB 2082;10].

 Come join us, and others, in this correcting time. We are all truly blessed with this opportunity to serve, to being about our Father's business.

 Thern Blackburn (Joshua) 2075 South 800 West Woods Cross, UT 84087 (801)295-8667

 John J. Wormeck, Ph.D. (Jeremiah) P.O. Box 684 Eden, UT 84310 (801)745-0424

References are given by UB, page, semicolon, paragraph. The Urantia Book, Urantia Foundation, 533 Diversey Parkway, Chicago, IL 60614 (1955). ISBN 0-911560-02-5. Opinions and interpretations are those of the authors. April, 1993

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